Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization • Hacker News Board

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#81

Post by bitexploder » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 2:13 AM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #68

embedding-shape wrote: post #29

> The work also benefits from recent research into the use of hallucinogens in treating mental illness, which has promoted broader acceptance of these substances. “There was long a feeling that drugs made you sick and addicted,” says José Capriles, an archaeologist at Pennsylvania State University (Penn State) who excavates in Bolivia. “Today, there is a new openness,” he adds, which is freeing grant money and attrac…

The problem with psychoactive drugs, as I understand it, is not the lack of positive results. There are plenty of well recognized cases. The problem is the the unpredictability, because there are plenty of catastrophic results too, and we don't really know why. We can't tell "in your case you should take this dose, the risks are quantified and acceptable, and this is what we should do if things go wrong". And it is n…

We have pretty strong indications of when and why things go wrong. Openness vs rigid thinking are an axis that are very strong correlative factors. A lot more nuance but there is a lot we do know about risk factors so it isn’t a complete question mark.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#82

Post by slowin » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 2:14 AM UTC

zakki wrote: post #78

slowin wrote: post #46

It's thought that a lot of the geometric designs in Indigenous pottery and architecture are directly influenced by hallucinogenic plants like datura. There's a really great YouTube channel called Desert Lore and he covers this topic in depth in this episode. It was really fascinating: https://youtu.be/Vp4JlUEnPTs?si=j8gH0WnHRpeo1BJu

The top comment when I clicked it does not agree with the narrative: @rkozakand 10 months ago The so called "southwestern motif" is found wherever people weave. Our native rugs in the mountains of Ukraine use the exact same motif, only in different colors. It is a natural outgrowth of weaving techniques, which encourage triangles. We also have ancient pottery from what is called the Trypillian culture, which includes…

He actually talks about that in the video and compares and contrasts the weaving based patterns, nature based patterns and hallucinogenic patterns. The datura pattern being nature based.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#83

Post by indlebe » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 2:34 AM UTC

boothby wrote: post #42

theturtletalks wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice strawman you got there. Meth is a man made synthetic compound. Fungi cover this earth and are one of the few natural drugs that cause brain elasticity and can cause personality change. The theory is real and, of course, controversial[0]. The formation of consciousness is still a mystery and I’m simply discussing a theory. If you have another theory you deem right, let’s argue on merit, not personal attacks. 0. h…

A theory can be "real" in the sense that people believe it, and also controversial because it has little consistent evidence behind it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth Nowhere in my comment did I attack you personally. I made an analogous argument; reductio ad absurdum. LSD is also a man-made synthetic compound, and promotes neuroplacticity. And if you've ever known a meth addict, you'll know that the substa…

For the record, the first time LSD was created it was made using lysergic acid derived from ergot, a mold found on rye. It is a semisynthetic drug, and cannot be created without an organic source.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#84

Post by krispyfi » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 2:41 AM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #60

clickety_clack wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant the graffiti and needles in tunnels and under bridges etc.

I know what you meant. But the words you used apply to my reply too. It's a reminder that any attempt at an objective definition of "drugs" includes alcohol and caffeine, and that there is a huge cultural component to "good drugs" and "bad drugs". In fact, coffee was considered one of the bad drugs by many cultures it when first introduced to them - including European culture.

"If I couldn't, three times a day, be allowed to drink my little cup of coffee, in my anguish I will turn into a shriveled-up roast goat" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweigt_stille%2C_plaudert_ni...

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#85

Post by daseiner1 » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 2:41 AM UTC

999900000999 wrote: post #79

GuB-42 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with psychoactive drugs, as I understand it, is not the lack of positive results. There are plenty of well recognized cases. The problem is the the unpredictability, because there are plenty of catastrophic results too, and we don't really know why. We can't tell "in your case you should take this dose, the risks are quantified and acceptable, and this is what we should do if things go wrong". And it is n…

The War on Drugs only serves to give law enforcement unlimited extra constitutional powers. Even the bizarre murder of Central American fishermen is justified by someone somewhere having a dime bag or something. Who needs trials , or evidence. Drugs are bad. Government good. Drugs bad.

i don't dispute that the "War on Drugs" was (is?) pretty much just a glorified jobs program for law enforcement but nevertheless some drugs are very bad. ironically enough alcohol, despite being the most readily available drug after caffeine, is probably the worst drug of all in terms of societal destruction.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#86

Post by krispyfi » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 3:36 AM UTC

LoganDark wrote: post #24

talon8635 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poison is a function of dosage. Water is a poison in a high enough dose. What’s you’re arguments it’s not a drug?

Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs, and I'd say the indiscriminate action and lack of any particular affinity is what makes it a poison as opposed to a drug. It is also generally assumed that alcohol is not exactly in the same category as drugs. ("drugs or alcohol" etc.)

"drugs or alcohol"

I usually encounter this framing from alcohol drinkers who are trying to be self-righteously judgemental about users of other drugs without getting hit by their own boomerang, so seeing it used for what is essentially the opposite opinion (i.e., that alcohol is worse than other drugs) is quite refreshing.

I still disagree with it, though. Alcohol is clearly a drug.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#87

Post by theholygrail » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 3:53 AM UTC

[flagged]

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#88

Post by krispyfi » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 4:02 AM UTC

indlebe wrote: post #83

boothby wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A theory can be "real" in the sense that people believe it, and also controversial because it has little consistent evidence behind it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth Nowhere in my comment did I attack you personally. I made an analogous argument; reductio ad absurdum. LSD is also a man-made synthetic compound, and promotes neuroplacticity. And if you've ever known a meth addict, you'll know that the substa…

For the record, the first time LSD was created it was made using lysergic acid derived from ergot, a mold found on rye. It is a semisynthetic drug, and cannot be created without an organic source.

Methamphetamine can be synthesized from the ephedra plant, and a total synthesis of LSD exists.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#89

Post by krispyfi » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 4:11 AM UTC

embedding-shape wrote: post #29

> The work also benefits from recent research into the use of hallucinogens in treating mental illness, which has promoted broader acceptance of these substances. “There was long a feeling that drugs made you sick and addicted,” says José Capriles, an archaeologist at Pennsylvania State University (Penn State) who excavates in Bolivia. “Today, there is a new openness,” he adds, which is freeing grant money and attrac…

I wouldn't celebrate the end of the war on drugs just yet. Even if psychedelic medicines are approved, bifurcated scheduling means that rich white people using psychedelics in clinics would be respectable medical users, but the same exact molecule used on the street by poor brown people would still be schedule 1 and used to justify continued persecution. Tails they win, heads we lose.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#90

Post by whakim » Sat, Sep 12, 2026, 4:19 AM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #68

embedding-shape wrote: post #29

> The work also benefits from recent research into the use of hallucinogens in treating mental illness, which has promoted broader acceptance of these substances. “There was long a feeling that drugs made you sick and addicted,” says José Capriles, an archaeologist at Pennsylvania State University (Penn State) who excavates in Bolivia. “Today, there is a new openness,” he adds, which is freeing grant money and attrac…

The problem with psychoactive drugs, as I understand it, is not the lack of positive results. There are plenty of well recognized cases. The problem is the the unpredictability, because there are plenty of catastrophic results too, and we don't really know why. We can't tell "in your case you should take this dose, the risks are quantified and acceptable, and this is what we should do if things go wrong". And it is n…

> The "war on drugs" certainly didn't help, but research never really stopped.

This is false. The scheduling of psychedelics such as psilocybin and LSD was catastrophic for medical research in the United States (as well as in many other countries) from the early 1970s until the mid-2000's. Even today, research on psychedelics is challenging.

> but we are struggling to turn these drugs into treatments that up to modern standards

The elephant in the room is that psychedelics don't really fit into our existing framework around development of psychiatric drugs. For example, you can't really run a RCT, because it's completely obvious to the patient whether they've received the drug or a placebo. The concepts of set and settings, and the importance of "guides" in trials, prove challenging as they introduce highly subjective elements. I would frame this as more of a mismatch than a case of "modern standards being better" - the jury is still out on whether psychedelics will prove effective, and we're still trying to figure out how to "prove" that.