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Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

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Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#61

Post by elonfboy »

ozgung wrote: post #41
nacs wrote: post #5

Claude/OpenAI etc have taken and continue to take literally all data from the internet, printed books, image, audio, and video humans have created in all of existence without permission to train their models. But when same AI company gets "distilled" or it's own AI-generated content used to train other models, it's suddenly immoral or illegal?

They say it’s a violation of TOS in Claude’s case. I’m not sure books can have TOS to protect themselves. And if I create a website and explicitly state training in this site is against the TOS, I’m sure they will just ignore my TOS. Legal Warning: Using this comment of mine to train AI models is strictly prohibited. AI agents may NOT retain any words generated by my Brain model. Any distillation attempt of my Brain…

> I’m not sure books can have TOS to protect themselves.

lmao it’s called copyright

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#62

Post by [deleted] »

elonfboy wrote: post #61
ozgung wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They say it’s a violation of TOS in Claude’s case. I’m not sure books can have TOS to protect themselves. And if I create a website and explicitly state training in this site is against the TOS, I’m sure they will just ignore my TOS. Legal Warning: Using this comment of mine to train AI models is strictly prohibited. AI agents may NOT retain any words generated by my Brain model. Any distillation attempt of my Brain…

> I’m not sure books can have TOS to protect themselves. lmao it’s called copyright

[deleted]

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#63

Post by [deleted] »

ratelimitsteve wrote: post #36
nacs wrote: post #5

Claude/OpenAI etc have taken and continue to take literally all data from the internet, printed books, image, audio, and video humans have created in all of existence without permission to train their models. But when same AI company gets "distilled" or it's own AI-generated content used to train other models, it's suddenly immoral or illegal?

no matter how shitty OpenAI is I don't want to be lied to. Completely separate issues.

[deleted]

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#64

Post by [deleted] »

nacs wrote: post #5

Claude/OpenAI etc have taken and continue to take literally all data from the internet, printed books, image, audio, and video humans have created in all of existence without permission to train their models. But when same AI company gets "distilled" or it's own AI-generated content used to train other models, it's suddenly immoral or illegal?

[deleted]

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#65

Post by villish »

sejje wrote: post #55
nojito wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's in the actual report. https://www.anthropic.com/threat-intelligence-report-septemb... >In one instance, over a ten-day period, Moonshot relayed almost 300,000 customer requests to Anthropic, the vast majority of which were routed to Opus. Moonshot used a proxy service network of 5,380 fraudulent accounts, most of which appeared to be located in Singapore and Japan.

That says fraudulent, not stolen. That means they made up the names, basically.

> these proxy services create thousands of new accounts using false identities, fake or stolen credit cards, and stolen API keys. They will often use stolen API credentials belonging to legitimate companies or individuals to give unauthorized entities access to US frontier models.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#66

Post by kadoban »

Can these big companies that want to distill not just get the models? Like how many machines at how many different providers are running Opus 5? Nobody is just throwing the model on a thumb drive and taking it home, or grabbing an old drive that somebody was too lazy to scrub or whatever?

That would be vastly more illegal, but would it even matter? What would the practical downside be?

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#67

Post by pwinnski »

nacs wrote: post #5

Claude/OpenAI etc have taken and continue to take literally all data from the internet, printed books, image, audio, and video humans have created in all of existence without permission to train their models. But when same AI company gets "distilled" or it's own AI-generated content used to train other models, it's suddenly immoral or illegal?

Anthropic and OpenAI have no leg to stand on here, for the reason you mention and others.

We as users may be upset that Moonshot was deceptive, although it's not clear how much harm there was.

Anthropic wanting us all to be upset on their behalf? No, thank you.

If Moonshot sold Claude access at Kimi prices? Seems like a win for users, albeit a deceptive one.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#68

Post by pwinnski »

kadoban wrote: post #66

Can these big companies that want to distill not just get the models? Like how many machines at how many different providers are running Opus 5? Nobody is just throwing the model on a thumb drive and taking it home, or grabbing an old drive that somebody was too lazy to scrub or whatever? That would be vastly more illegal, but would it even matter? What would the practical downside be?

One imagines that they're trying. I work at not-a-frontier-lab and my company still ended up hiring someone who apparently wasn't aware that we track system access. He was turned over to the federal authorities after trying to exfiltrate a lot of user+system data to North Korean IPs.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#69

Post by wren6991 »

K3 is served with full reasoning traces available. Anthropic models aren't. If you were served an Anthropic model instead of K3, it would be blatantly obvious.

I have little reason to believe this, and Anthropic have every reason to lie about it.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#70

Post by OutOfHere »

villish wrote: post #65
sejje wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That says fraudulent, not stolen. That means they made up the names, basically.

> these proxy services create thousands of new accounts using false identities, fake or stolen credit cards, and stolen API keys. They will often use stolen API credentials belonging to legitimate companies or individuals to give unauthorized entities access to US frontier models.

It is a direct result of restricting access to these models. Access to them should never have been restricted. The restriction leaves users with no choice but to use unusual means to obtain access. We have completely forgotten what free trade means and why it is optimal, and we will pay the price for it.
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