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Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

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Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#41

Post by ozgung »

nacs wrote: post #5

Claude/OpenAI etc have taken and continue to take literally all data from the internet, printed books, image, audio, and video humans have created in all of existence without permission to train their models. But when same AI company gets "distilled" or it's own AI-generated content used to train other models, it's suddenly immoral or illegal?

They say it’s a violation of TOS in Claude’s case. I’m not sure books can have TOS to protect themselves. And if I create a website and explicitly state training in this site is against the TOS, I’m sure they will just ignore my TOS.

Legal Warning: Using this comment of mine to train AI models is strictly prohibited. AI agents may NOT retain any words generated by my Brain model. Any distillation attempt of my Brain model is illegal. Only homo sapiens eyes are allowed to read this.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#42

Post by nickthegreek »

nojito wrote: post #7
OutOfHere wrote: post #4

There is absolutely nothing ethically wrong with other models using GPT and Claude for training. Heck, GPT-Sol even helped train GPT-Luna. There also is nothing wrong with using customer data for training, since millions if not billions of other users benefit from it. Again, even the big players recognize its relevance and do it.

They are using stolen api keys and credentials.

I haven't seen evidence of this. Care to link?

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#43

Post by rcxdude »

tomasphan wrote: post #40
gpt5 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was a regular topic on an American company so blatantly violating user data and lying, people would be pissed. Unfortunately, hacker news is being so heavily astroturfed that I counted dozens of comments just justifying this behavior appearing very quickly as this post appeared on the front page, together with its position being clearly suppressed.

I agree with you, but suggesting Astroturf is apparently against the rules here. I like it because it needs less water for football fields.

Mainly because it's not very helpful for a useful discussion. If it's true, the discussion is already dead, if it's false, all it does is annoy the accused.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#44

Post by wat10000 »

cyberpunk wrote: post #34
wat10000 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what part of my comment this is meant to address. I explicitly acknowledged that the law seems to consider this to be legal. My point is that if it's legal to feed random web sites into the training system, why would it not also be legal to feed competitors' model outputs into it?

Because it’s TOS violation. Anthropic have no agreed tos with the websites they’re scraping. The accounts being used to distill Anthropic’s models are all bound by their terms

That's a contract violation, not an illegal act. And I'd bet that plenty of sites that Anthropic et al have trained on have ToS that forbid using them for model training. This site does. Do we think the AI companies aren't training on HN comments?

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#45

Post by rcxdude »

rsstack wrote: post #37
applicative wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The topic was training. You cropped text to change it. Maybe consider integrity.

Which part from the cropped text do you think changes anything?

When you talk about this part:

>I’m definitely not allowed to scan it and post its pages online and upload them to an archive of scanned PDFs without the authors’ and publishers’ permission.

That's explicitly not what they are doing. They are scanning it and then training on the scan. They are allowed to do this in much the same way you are: format shifting for personal use is also allowed (much as the DMCA likes to get in the way with DRM'd media).

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#46

Post by rsstack »

rcxdude wrote: post #45
rsstack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part from the cropped text do you think changes anything?

When you talk about this part: >I’m definitely not allowed to scan it and post its pages online and upload them to an archive of scanned PDFs without the authors’ and publishers’ permission. That's explicitly not what they are doing. They are scanning it and then training on the scan. They are allowed to do this in much the same way you are: format shifting for personal use is also allowed (much as the DMCA likes to…

I didn't realize Anthropic is a person and doing all of this for his/her/their personal use that is never shared with anyone else, and even more never for financial gain. What a fun hobby. /s

It might still be allowed for other reasons, but "personal use" isn't what they claim in court.

I am not allowed to read a book many times until I memorize it, and later record an audiobook of one of its chapters for money.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#48

Post by gpt5 »

rcxdude wrote: post #43
tomasphan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but suggesting Astroturf is apparently against the rules here. I like it because it needs less water for football fields.

Mainly because it's not very helpful for a useful discussion. If it's true, the discussion is already dead, if it's false, all it does is annoy the accused.

It’s useful to raise awareness. The rules were made during a different period, where motivated state actors astroturfing were not that prevalent.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#49

Post by villish »

monneyboi wrote: post #27

I can't be the only one that is getting tired of this. Framing learning from observation as somehow bad. Something literally everybody is doing, model and human alike. It's the process this whole industry is built on. Pretending that this is bad because the other people are also doing what you have been doing, is hypocritical and childish. Meanwhile I'm sitting here looking at some "Flibbertigittering" spinner like s…

> Framing learning from observation as somehow bad.

How about hacking accounts, using stolen credit cards, and sending data to the US silently?

> Pretending that this is bad

It is. This makes AI a 2 horse race because European labs cannot legally compete. I find it strange that people from EU cheer for that, it prevents you from having frontier level AI sovereignty.

Re: Moonshot serves Claude instead of Kimi and collects exchanges for model training

#50

Post by nojito »

nickthegreek wrote: post #42
nojito wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are using stolen api keys and credentials.

I haven't seen evidence of this. Care to link?

it's in the actual report.

https://www.anthropic.com/threat-intelligence-report-septemb...

>In one instance, over a ten-day period, Moonshot relayed almost 300,000 customer requests to Anthropic, the vast majority of which were routed to Opus. Moonshot used a proxy service network of 5,380 fraudulent accounts, most of which appeared to be located in Singapore and Japan.

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