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I have a theory that software drives people insane

graybeard.ing

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Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#191

Post by hulitu »

icantevenhold wrote: post #27
bob1029 wrote: post #4

Software development untethered from the practical realities of the customer / user is what drives people insane. When developers are required to interact with the customer on a regular basis , the freewheeling effects described in this article are damped massively. The potential for insanity goes off the charts when the development team is siloed away in solitary confinement and the only interactions with the client…

I disagree - it’s best never to talk to users because they have no idea what good quality is and will constantly push you to implement stupid features that only they uniquely need because of their fucked up business practices. Or weaken your security so it works with their fucked up legacy firewall that cant ever be changed and so on. Talking to users -> not even once. Might be only this bad in B2B software

> it’s best never to talk to users because they have no idea what good quality is

You should use some Microsoft, Google, Adobe and Apple products to have an idea what good quality _isn't_.

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#192

Post by da_chicken »

addaon wrote: post #165
da_chicken wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, this is the only kind of software that ends up not sucking. If development is not driven by users in a very intimate way -- like being one and the same person -- then you routinely end up with necessary features only half working or splitting essential information across multiple screens or dialogs. Eating your own dog food is essential to rising above that, because only that reality will overwhelm…

> It's why only software like text editors and web browsers gets to be really good. Huge user base. Lots of developers involved. There's lots of great software out there that you interact with every day that was written by a small number of developers to clear requirements. Your car ABS brakes. Your coffee maker. Your brushless drill. Your TV remote. Think of the fact that majority of the microprocessors and microcon…

You're mistaking shitty software for software that doesn't work. Shitty software is 100% functional. You just hate it.

By intentionally picking the software that eliminates the UI, when the whole benefit of computers as a tool is that the UI is infinitely flexible, you're picking shitty software that doesn't appear that shitty. But it still is.

I mean, I hate the way my TV remote works and have wanted to change it. But I can't. It has buttons that open NetFlix or Apple TV that I can't change, and I don't have any ability to reprogram them because the companies paid for it to be a permanent advertisement I can't get rid of. That sucks.

But also, I think we only have to look far for what shitty appliance software looks like. VCRs and microwaves are notorious for having shitty software. As soon as we introduce a network, suddenly the software sucking is an immediate problem: witness the nightmare stories of Jeep updates, Tesla lockouts, and paywall feature locks when the hardware is present. Or we can look at the spying done by LG that you can't turn off. Or the forced advertising that Samsung showed they can do to your fridge.

Or how automobiles need an OBD reader even thought they ship with a built-in tablet. Or how the OBD codes are something you have to pay for. Or how you might not be able to disable the stupid "shut the car off" feature when you stop at a red light.

Shitty software on microcontrollers is some of the most tyrannical shitty software there is.

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#193

Post by win311fwg »

devmor wrote: post #182
win311fwg wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the job we all want to have, but it doesn’t exist. It’d be nice to say you are the lone outlier here but unless the previous comment was completely made up we know that’s not the case.

Your job doesn't have to be that way. You can't always change your circumstances, but if you work to make little changes to improve your environment, the people that work with you probably will too. My current team is like that - we all see the roadblocks that make our job harder, and we know we can't solve them all, but we talk about and work on making our own solutions to get around those things - like making a hab…

I has only been approximately 11 hours since your job was expressed to be quite different. I am glad that you recognized the source of your frustration and managed to turn your situation around — and so quickly at that! — but be aware that it is still early days. Temporary aberrations are common in the workplace.

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#194

Post by [deleted] »

mitxela wrote: post #183
win311fwg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's why only software like [...] web browsers gets to be really good. Huh? Web browsers are still laughably bad even after all these years. They are engineering marvels, certainly, but using them leaves a lot to be desired. I cannot imagine anyone would voluntarily use them if the ultimate function was equally available another way.

You mean installing the Reddit, X and Instagram apps on my phone? I use them in the browser because the browser is so terrible they don't spy on me as much.

[deleted]

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#195

Post by zanellato19 »

bob1029 wrote: post #4

Software development untethered from the practical realities of the customer / user is what drives people insane. When developers are required to interact with the customer on a regular basis , the freewheeling effects described in this article are damped massively. The potential for insanity goes off the charts when the development team is siloed away in solitary confinement and the only interactions with the client…

The stakeholders should be held accountable to this. C level and PMs. Otherwise they just push what they believe will be better, no matter what developers say.

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#196

Post by devmor »

win311fwg wrote: post #193
devmor wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your job doesn't have to be that way. You can't always change your circumstances, but if you work to make little changes to improve your environment, the people that work with you probably will too. My current team is like that - we all see the roadblocks that make our job harder, and we know we can't solve them all, but we talk about and work on making our own solutions to get around those things - like making a hab…

I has only been approximately 11 hours since your job was expressed to be quite different. I am glad that you recognized the source of your frustration and managed to turn your situation around — and so quickly at that! — but be aware that it is still early days. Temporary aberrations are common in the workplace.

I don't know what kind of things you are inferring from my comments, but they are quite clear and do not contradict eachother. I'll ask you to stick to the literal text of my words rather than guessing new meanings for them if you want to discuss them with me further!

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#197

Post by waylandsmithers »

This rings so true to me. I've had about a dozen jobs in software and exposure to another dozen through consulting, and I've generally found that the more mundane the application, the more the company's leadership and many employees had deluded themselves into thinking they were truly changing the world (a sales productivity tool in the most extreme case). Like the bigger the elephant in the room that the project was actually pretty boring, the more overcompensation there had to be.

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#198

Post by addaon »

da_chicken wrote: post #192
addaon wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's why only software like text editors and web browsers gets to be really good. Huge user base. Lots of developers involved. There's lots of great software out there that you interact with every day that was written by a small number of developers to clear requirements. Your car ABS brakes. Your coffee maker. Your brushless drill. Your TV remote. Think of the fact that majority of the microprocessors and microcon…

You're mistaking shitty software for software that doesn't work. Shitty software is 100% functional. You just hate it. By intentionally picking the software that eliminates the UI, when the whole benefit of computers as a tool is that the UI is infinitely flexible, you're picking shitty software that doesn't appear that shitty. But it still is. I mean, I hate the way my TV remote works and have wanted to change it. B…

> when the whole benefit of computers as a tool is that the UI is infinitely flexible

I think this statement is insane. The benefit of computers is that they allow complex behaviors to be defined and implemented. The benefit of software is that it’s the lowest-NRE way of defining those complex behaviors. UI doesn’t come into it, except in a few edge cases like desktop computers, phones, appliances, etc. A climate model’s “benefit” comes from its output, not the form in which it generates output or takes input.

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#199

Post by mikewarot »

My career in software development happened back in the days of MS-DOS, before Windows really took hold. I developed a system that recorded the inspection of Fire Safety equipment like Fire Extinguishers, Hoses, etc. My initial estimate for the time required to build the system was 2 months, it actually took 3. Then the client looked at it, and it met all the requirements, but was unusable in practice. I then worked onsite for a year, and learned so much about software usability by seeing it in use. After that year, we deployed it to 10 other sites.

Other than having a summer intern once, it was a solo effort. The code was written in Turbo Pascal, with some code on the hand-held computers written in a language called PL/N. (A variant of PL/1 for the Norand corporation handhelds)

I wrote all my own text editing/forms handling libraries, and everything else I needed. Version control was using pkZip to archive the source code onto 3.5" floppy disks.

Tying it back to the article in question, I can't imagine what it's been like with the push for "sprints" and all the rest in software development over the past few decades. I can see how it would drive you to burnout. I'm very thankful I missed it.

Y'all have my sympathy.

Re: I have a theory that software drives people insane

#200

Post by win311fwg »

devmor wrote: post #196
win311fwg wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I has only been approximately 11 hours since your job was expressed to be quite different. I am glad that you recognized the source of your frustration and managed to turn your situation around — and so quickly at that! — but be aware that it is still early days. Temporary aberrations are common in the workplace.

I don't know what kind of things you are inferring from my comments, but they are quite clear and do not contradict eachother. I'll ask you to stick to the literal text of my words rather than guessing new meanings for them if you want to discuss them with me further!

No need to guess new meanings. The message was loud and clear:

'"What problem are we trying to solve?" is a question I have to ask constantly in corporate development environments, and rarely does anyone presenting the task to be done actually know the answer! It's very frustrating.'

We talked about that for a bit, and then, only hours later, we got:

"Your job doesn't have to be that way."

So, again, I am glad you realized you have the power to change your world and did so. But, again, know that there were only hours between your job being a complete frustrating mess and it ostensibly becoming a well functioning system so there is not yet any evidence of it being a long-lived change. People can modify their behaviour momentarily but old habits die hard.

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