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NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

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Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#241

Post by drillsteps5 »

hbcdbff wrote: post #230
Iolaum wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol! OP writes: PM finally said "too fast, go around" but PF ignored him (or likely did not hear)

I don’t see this in the official CVR transcript from the NTSB. Only mention of “around” is the go-around called on the ground, 15s before CVR stopped

Yes I was wrong. Looking at the transcript that go-around call out was likely from the PF; that's where the data recorder indicates the brakes were released the throttle set to max for the go-around (and go back to braking only 4 sec later).

Still, the PM notified PF that they were going too fast many times during the approach. All warnings were ignored.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#242

Post by MadnessASAP »

netsharc wrote: post #199
rob74 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If any of the two pilots feel uncomfortable about the approach, they are actually drilled to just order a go-around, not politely ask and hint that they would prefer to do it like this FO did (wastes time). Ideally the pilot flying should then do it, but if they don't, the pilot monitoring can also take control (while clearly stating "my controls, going around") and do it. One major issue that I bet the NTSB will not…

Also not an expert, I wonder if there's some rule where a "Go around!" order has precedence over any other activity anyone in the cockpit wishes to perform. As a passenger I had my first go around a few days ago, but we were 5km away from the runway.

(I fix airplanes, have been in aviation for 15 years)

Yes, it does. I can't speak universally but I would generally expect it to be a written rule, if not then at least it's the expectation.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#243

Post by [deleted] »

idontwantthis wrote: post #153
drillsteps5 wrote: post #126

A few observations to add context (partially stolen from PPRuNe): - Pilot Flying (PF) was the Captain, 55 yo (presumably) more experienced pilot, who only got certified to fly that type (B767) in May - Pilot Monitoring (PM) was a 38 yo first officer, also not very experienced on B767 - PF made a number of mistakes, going too high, too fast (partially because he was descending too fast), not catching the glidescope on…

Exactly the situation The Rehearsal season 2 was about.

[deleted]

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#244

Post by roger_maddux_iv »

pfdietz wrote: post #201

Waiting for the Mentour Pilot episode on this.

I said basically the same thing at [0], but my comments from the past couple of days all got dead fast.

Anyway, Mentour Pilot has a 2.5 minute short coverage, and the long form one is indeed something to look forward to.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49653533

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#245

Post by tekla »

throwaway173738 wrote: post #234
tekla wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Provide evidence of any of this, or are you just spreading random fud because you don't like Amazon. Claiming that this company is making Aviation unsafe is a serious accusation, that requires evidence.

Well they tend to optimize heavily by discouraging things like bathroom breaks, and I’ve seen evidence of this thinking in how they treat their drivers. I’m not sure why this would be extraordinary? On its face those incentives don’t sound bad except that they will incentivize unsafe behavior in edge cases like this.

Why do you think delivery driver stuff is any way comparable to aviation? Do you have evidence of pilots being forced to do unsafe things?

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#246

Post by anonymars »

drillsteps5 wrote: post #126

A few observations to add context (partially stolen from PPRuNe): - Pilot Flying (PF) was the Captain, 55 yo (presumably) more experienced pilot, who only got certified to fly that type (B767) in May - Pilot Monitoring (PM) was a 38 yo first officer, also not very experienced on B767 - PF made a number of mistakes, going too high, too fast (partially because he was descending too fast), not catching the glidescope on…

> Pilot Monitoring (PM) was a 38 yo first officer, also not very experienced on B767

But importantly, the first officer had almost a year more experience in the 767, which sets the stage for an almost textbook imbalance: having to speak up to someone senior to you, someone older and with more overall experience, but less direct experience in the airplane they are flying

Other comments talk about The Rehearsal Season 2, which is spot on. The FAA of course had dismissed the idea that there needed to be any special focus on training pilots to speak up, saying it's already under the umbrella of CRM (crew resource management)

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#247

Post by drillsteps5 »

rob74 wrote: post #190
drillsteps5 wrote: post #126

A few observations to add context (partially stolen from PPRuNe): - Pilot Flying (PF) was the Captain, 55 yo (presumably) more experienced pilot, who only got certified to fly that type (B767) in May - Pilot Monitoring (PM) was a 38 yo first officer, also not very experienced on B767 - PF made a number of mistakes, going too high, too fast (partially because he was descending too fast), not catching the glidescope on…

One more thing worth noting is that they flew through bad weather on the approach, which led to the deviation from the glideslope. But the actual issue IMHO is not going around when they noticed that the approach was wildly unstable, or at the latest when they noticed that they were going to touch down with very little runway left.

It wasn't bad weather. Captain was going way too fast to begin with, and started descent later than needed. So he needed to catch up with the glide/descent slope by making the plane descend faster. Thus gaining even more speed. He still arrived too late (overshot the beginning of the runway), with higher speed (I think 30 kts over the limit) and not configured (flaps not down).

It was really, really, really sloppy approach. And all could have been corrected just by executing go-around literally at any point in time up to 10 sec before he did. Both pilots still would have their careers, and those 5 people would still be alive.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#248

Post by usefulcat »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #174
gib444 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder: would PM have taken control if they had more experience on the 767?

Having pilots fighting over the controls is not a situation anyone wants. The pilot monitoring saying go around should have caused an immediate reaction, the human factors behind why it didn't will probably feature prominently in the post-accident actions.

> The pilot monitoring saying go around should have caused an immediate reaction

Is there evidence that PM ever called for a go around? I mean earlier, when it would have actually been possible, not 15 seconds before the end of the flight data recording.

From what I've heard, PM stated (repeatedly) that they were too high and/or too fast, and PF was not heard to respond.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#249

Post by anonymars »

outworlder wrote: post #143
fiatpandas wrote: post #129

>A pilot called for flaps to be set to 20 degrees, and the other pilot cautioned they were too fast. The other pilot made additional comments regarding the aircraft’s excessive speed throughout the remainder of the recording. There was not a consistent verbal response to the comments about speed. Wow, The Rehearsal season 2 flashbacks. Although the show was mostly pure absurdity, the central claim of crisis in cockpit…

> lack of adequate FAA mandated training around interpersonal dynamics Generally, that's under the 'crew resource management' umbrella.

This interview aged well...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bIFdbd6dmKg&t=275s (4min 35sec)

Anyway, this is the opening scene of Season 2 and it feels eerily spot on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDu0b6nxMjY

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#250

Post by [deleted] »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #183
_moof wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turbofans being slow to spool up is jets 101.

So presumably OP never took jets 101. Neither have I. So what? The condescension remains unjustified and contrary to fruitful interaction. (See also the "lucky 10000" xkcd.)

[deleted]
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