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NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

ntsb.gov

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Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#221

Post by tekla »

stackghost wrote: post #133
overfeed wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you comment as if you are knowledgeable enough about aviation to speak on this with authority, but you aren't aware that ... This is par for the course for HN; smart people applying first-principle thinking on unfamiliar domains for about a minute, which confirms the biases of other outsiders who vote the plausible, but not-quite-right comments to the top.

HN is particularly notorious for armchair aviation experts. I am an aerospace engineer having worked in airworthiness & certification as well as maintenance/repair/overhaul on multiple different aircraft types both fixed and rotary. I mention this only to establish my bona fides as someone who knows their shit: The comments here during the 737 MAX MCAS thing were fucking wild. So many randoms spitting out confidently…

I've worked on several engine families engine certification, I can't read threads about aviation on HN because my brain hurts too much from people who know nothing posting like they are experts nonstop.

It actually causes me stress because a) I need to prevent myself from posting corrections and b) from knowing that these people are everywhere and are posting fud about trains or something

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#222

Post by Peanuts99 »

lenerdenator wrote: post #122

I know that it's not a luxury that all metro areas can implement, but if you look at airports like Denver or Kansas City, there is a very, very good reason that those airports are out in the middle of nowhere. Lots of accidents happen close to the runway, either on takeoff or landing. It's better that it be in a field than a road or building filled with people.

Isn't this usually because people don't like big jets flying over their houses.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#223

Post by hbcdbff »

detourdog wrote: post #214
jsmith45 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the spitting image of old pre-CRM thinking: If I try to force the captain to go around, (or follow procedures or whatever), then i am exceeding my authority and will probably be fired. Some cultures have this sort of mentality a lot stronger than others, and it has zero place in the modern cockpit. While a captain can pull rank, they really should only ever do it with respect to the first officer if: an inexp…

This seems like a no win situation for the subordinate pilot. Grabbing the wheel of an aircraft while landing must have its own set of risks. We also only hear about the times when the subordinate pilot didn’t prevent a crash. Never hear about the times they were mistaken and did nothing.

He doesn’t need to “grab the wheel”. Simply saying “go-around” would have been enough, it’s highly highly unlikely that the captain would have ignored that.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#224

Post by rbanffy »

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #82
mandeepj wrote: post #73

The NTSB confirmed that while the pilot applied the physical wheel brakes, the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) showed zero evidence that the speed brakes/spoilers ever extended. They also overshot the runway; I think those were the key mistakes that caused the accident. https://www.wisn.com/article/amazon-cargo-plane-black-box-mi...

The key mistakes were that they had 11 mandatory go-around situations between 1000ft before touchdown and overshooting the runway and they didn't go around.

Does the 767 have automated voice callouts for those?

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#225

Post by hbcdbff »

ibejoeb wrote: post #197
gib444 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder: would PM have taken control if they had more experience on the 767?

The PM got his rating about 18 months ago. The PF only got his this past May. The PM had more overall hours, but this is looking a lot like a skills issue. He was flying an unstable approach. He wasn't configured for landing. This pairing, considering past incidents with similar airframe vs. total hours disparity, really does look to be bad practice. You've got to acknowledge the human psychology. Part of it is proba…

This isn’t a skill issue, it’s laziness and negligence.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#226

Post by tekla »

rbanffy wrote: post #216
outworlder wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should not be the case for any modern airline; too many accidents were caused by exactly this problem in the past. However, I don't doubt shady operations might be doing this(more so if they aren't carrying passengers). They won't be around for long if they are caught doing this kind of nonsense and it causes an incident (or accident in this case). Today there may be some rules (more than X go arounds because of…

> I don't doubt shady operations If there is a company willing to bend rules to increase profits, I'd bet it'd be Amazon's retail side. Not via explicit punishment, because that'd be too easy to catch, but bonuses for timely arrivals, fuel efficiency, and so on.

Provide evidence of any of this, or are you just spreading random fud because you don't like Amazon.

Claiming that this company is making Aviation unsafe is a serious accusation, that requires evidence.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#227

Post by throwaway173738 »

dylan604 wrote: post #117
psunavy03 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did fly jets, although not transport-class ones. Just to hammer home that everything here is correct, and the common thread through all aircraft types is disciplined execution. You fly an approach on airspeed and/or angle of attack, and on glideslope. Period. You're either there or you're correcting to get there, and you're correcting at a point that you don't need huge oh-my-God corrections in close. If you can't do…

Do companies punish pilots for go arounds for costing them fuel and delays? If not outright punished, does it cost them in potential promotion/raises? Do they look into a go around enough to determine cause or are all go arounds assumed pilot error by the company?

I wonder if Amazon does.

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#228

Post by Iolaum »

hbcdbff wrote: post #223
detourdog wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a no win situation for the subordinate pilot. Grabbing the wheel of an aircraft while landing must have its own set of risks. We also only hear about the times when the subordinate pilot didn’t prevent a crash. Never hear about the times they were mistaken and did nothing.

He doesn’t need to “grab the wheel”. Simply saying “go-around” would have been enough, it’s highly highly unlikely that the captain would have ignored that.

lol! OP writes:

   PM finally said "too fast, go around" but PF ignored him (or likely did not hear)

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#229

Post by vanschelven »

jsmith45 wrote: post #136
drillsteps5 wrote: post #126

A few observations to add context (partially stolen from PPRuNe): - Pilot Flying (PF) was the Captain, 55 yo (presumably) more experienced pilot, who only got certified to fly that type (B767) in May - Pilot Monitoring (PM) was a 38 yo first officer, also not very experienced on B767 - PF made a number of mistakes, going too high, too fast (partially because he was descending too fast), not catching the glidescope on…

This is the spitting image of old pre-CRM thinking: If I try to force the captain to go around, (or follow procedures or whatever), then i am exceeding my authority and will probably be fired. Some cultures have this sort of mentality a lot stronger than others, and it has zero place in the modern cockpit. While a captain can pull rank, they really should only ever do it with respect to the first officer if: an inexp…

> CRM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management

Re: NTSB issues investigative update on B-767 runway excursion accident in Miami

#230

Post by hbcdbff »

Iolaum wrote: post #228
hbcdbff wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesn’t need to “grab the wheel”. Simply saying “go-around” would have been enough, it’s highly highly unlikely that the captain would have ignored that.

lol! OP writes: PM finally said "too fast, go around" but PF ignored him (or likely did not hear)

I don’t see this in the official CVR transcript from the NTSB. Only mention of “around” is the go-around called on the ground, 15s before CVR stopped
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