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Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

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Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#481

Post by apatheticonion »

za3faran wrote: post #408
apatheticonion wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a software design standpoint, it certainly takes some adjustment going from OOP to the compositional architecture and structural trait system used by Rust, but it's not that big a shift. The biggest downsides are the poor standard library that ships with Rust and the non prescriptive project structure which puts too much authority on the writer to figure out. The biggest wins are that runtime exceptions and conc…

We've seen several anecdotes where JIT languages (e.g. Java) outperform Rust in throughput and latency in long-running server programs.

Performance isn't really the selling point for me.

It's the fact that runtime errors are essentially impossible, making writing, reviewing, testing code very easy.

It also means LLMs can spin it out with the compiler, and if it compiles, it probably works. You just need to organize the code.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#482

Post by fc417fc802 »

aaronmdjones wrote: post #460
peterfirefly wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, it's because of the greater lift.

No. Your calculated landing speed doesn't change depending on the winds, so you'll always be touching down at roughly the same airspeed for the same aircraft type, weight, and flap setting. Touching down with a headwind just means you don't need to use the brakes as hard. It's beneficial on takeoff because headwind already factors into your airspeed before you even start rolling, which gives you more lift for the sam…

You're literally repeating what the other guy said with different words.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#483

Post by gregw2 »

bigfishrunning wrote: post #186
gregw2 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't the game industry moving to rust? Someone in that industry can perhaps speak to it, but I have two cents of perspective... I have helped a young person with gamedev interests try to learn rust (on Windows). They've learned some rust, but the graphics+Windows libraries and primitives to work with are not very good nor straightforward, even with AI assistance. Besides weakness in the gaming/rendering domain,…

It seems like you're comparing "start from scratch in rust" to "start with an existing game engine in some other language". That's not really a fair comparison. there are popular game engines in rust (although i think they're mostly smaller/more niche then something like unity or godot), bevy comes to mind.

True. I think we tried bevy but don't remember what if any issues we had.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#484

Post by fullstop »

ryukoposting wrote: post #277
tialaramex wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust 1.0 was in 2015. Most of these languages you're thinking of out of the Handmade Community didn't even start development until around the point Rust 1.0 shipped. In theory Odin 2027, the 1.0 release of Bill's Odin language, is scheduled for, as the name suggests, early 2027. Zig does not have an announced 1.0 schedule, and who knows for the other two famous Handmade languages. From the rash of "C++ successor" lan…

As an embedded dev, it still feels a decade away, at least. Rust is perfectly usable as a lang to make a little module that links into your main project as a .a file. But, as the language for your whole embedded codebase? Forget it. I have a litany of complaints including Cargo fuckery, ecosystem neglect, lack of first-party support, excessive code size, bad documentation, and bad IR that wastes stack by creating cop…

I'm in the same boat. Using Rust within Yocto is tricky since the whole point of Yocto is that you have a system which can build reproducible images. I can't have Cargo going out and fetching crates during the build process, they need to be recipes and artifacts which are accurately versioned and identified.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#485

Post by fullstop »

bluGill wrote: post #60
seki285 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with wordpress exactly?

there are a lot of really bad plugins that are used. Also there are a lot of really bad admins who have out of date versions that are misconfigured.

And even if a plugin is disabled, the code can still be called.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#487

Post by throwaway273748 »

kbolino wrote: post #474
hn_submit wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some deployments can be AOT compiled (ASP.NET, mobile), others (like WinForms, WPF) cannot. That makes it confusing and fickle since not all language features work with AOT. Microsoft needs to choose for AOT Full Monty and leave the CLR behind.

The CLR is the reason most C# games are moddable.

For a definition of moddable that boils down to "download random executable blobs from some anonymous Discord and let them completely loose on your device". With predictable consequences. [0]

Whereas Bethesda and Paradox (mainline strategy) games are examples of games that are intentionally moddable, with Cpp cores wrapping sanely defined content sandboxes.

Frankly I'd rather the C# style of modding didn't exist at all. It usually means the devs haven't thought about how mods should hook in at all, beyond "inject whatever you want and we'll break it on almost every update. Also, we don't have the resources to review mods so expect them to occasionally be/come malware. We take no responsibility even though we're literally the ones distributing the malware to you via our first party mod store."

[0] https://www.pcgamesn.com/cities-skylines-2/hacked-mod

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#488

Post by rafterydj »

vouwfietsman wrote: post #462
rafterydj wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it is not the mandated option, under what circumstances is Windows the best choice for software dev? The only domain I can think of is gaming, and Valve is seemingly coming up fast to eat Microsoft's lunch in the next few years.

As mentioned: gaming, most of enterprise dev, graphics/gpu/cad, desktop, certain classes of embedded. Broadly speaking, outside of hacker/web/creative culture, the default is windows. Regardless of how evil gigantic companies can be, or what the ideal world should look like: from a pure usability perspective, windows is top of the list. If I got 5$ every time a linux/mac enthousiasts has to tell me they just cannot r…

No disagreements on things not working right on Mac/Linux, it's definitely a frustration!

I would argue against the idea that it's the default for most enterprise dev. What you refer to as creative/web culture I would refer to as a newer generation of enterprise dev written in (I know) JS, TS, Electron etc. There is a lot of cross platform stuff out there, at least for clients, and Linux has taken up a lot of ground in the server market as well.

With CAD and GPU programming you have a point - proprietary drivers written for Windows has more technical sticking power.

I guess my feeling is that, especially with all the headlines saying European countries will move away from American software giants, Windows seems less attractive as a long term target for investing my time. Not to mention it's buggy and slow these days.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#489

Post by throwaway273748 »

Uther wrote: post #432
bryanlarsen wrote: post #77

This is from rustconf. A lot of the focus at Rustconf this year has been C++ interop, Python Interop, Javascript interop -- it's no longer about "rewrite it in rust", it's about being part of the ecosystem.

Rewrite it in Rust has always been more a fantasy of the C++ community than a goal of the Rust ecosystem.

I must have a very active imagination then because I sure keep seeing rewrites of things in Rust

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#490

Post by tcfhgj »

fullstop wrote: post #484
ryukoposting wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an embedded dev, it still feels a decade away, at least. Rust is perfectly usable as a lang to make a little module that links into your main project as a .a file. But, as the language for your whole embedded codebase? Forget it. I have a litany of complaints including Cargo fuckery, ecosystem neglect, lack of first-party support, excessive code size, bad documentation, and bad IR that wastes stack by creating cop…

I'm in the same boat. Using Rust within Yocto is tricky since the whole point of Yocto is that you have a system which can build reproducible images. I can't have Cargo going out and fetching crates during the build process, they need to be recipes and artifacts which are accurately versioned and identified.

You don't have to use Cargo,you can fall back to just using rustc; also Cargo supports censoring, meaning you can use locally stored crates.
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