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The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

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Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#61

Post by mmillin »

I think a lot of the loss of shame is a result of multiculturalism. The more cultures you accept, the fewer behaviors you can openly shame.

As a benign example, eating food with your hands rather than utensils. In some cultures this is rarely ever tolerated, in others it depends on the food item, and in others still you might always eat with your hands. These will be at odds and you have to decide what is OK to shame and what isn’t.

I think we as a society bias against shaming in seeking inclusivity, but some things can be lost along the way as well. To use the eating example again, eating with your hands instead of utensils may be more likely to spread disease (or maybe it needs to be coupled with a stronger shame against _not_ washing hands). I don’t know what the right approach is to strike a balance here in a multicultural society.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#63

Post by rcxdude »

scotty79 wrote: post #29
shib71 wrote: post #21

Shame was more effective in the past is because it came with consequences - lost business, lower standing in the community, fewer romantic prospects. It used to be part a healthy survival instinct. Without repercussions, shame is just a handicap and those who don't have it have a massive advantage.

I don't get it. On one hand people are lamenting departure of shame, on the other they complain how easy it is to get your life ruined by becoming a target of internet hate for a minor transgression. Maybe the shame didn't disappear, just fell prey to increasing inequality where one end of the spectrum has very little where the other gets absurd amounts?

Well, in practice shame is a local effect: it only matters if it's coming from people that you respect. Some people being angry at you in a community is going to affect you most severely when you're a member of that community: otherwise it's just how much that community can effectivity harass you (also something that scales with how close you are to it). This does mean that 'cancel culture' has a horrendous bias towards 'friendly fire' in its results.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#64

Post by jhbadger »

exitb wrote: post #57
jhbadger wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That I really don't get (and I experience it a lot using transit for my commute) . It seems more common now, but you'd think it would be less common. Headphones used to be bulky things, now Bluetooth earbuds are tiny things easily put in your pocket -- why not use them?

In some places it's shameful to show one's hair, or to eat while you walk in public. In some, people don't think about those things at all. In others, the ability to do those things can be an expression of personal freedom. What you experience is a cultural difference.

Well, not quite. Not showing your hair or not eating in public may have meaning in somebody's culture/religion, but it doesn't hurt anyone else either way. Playing video/music without earphones does. And surely people must have experienced it from the other side when people nearby were playing music they didn't care for. I think it is reasonable for people to ask themselves "Would I like it if someone near me did ?", and if the answer is 'No' to not do it themselves. Maybe this is "shame" or maybe simple empathy.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#65

Post by Tsarp »

Might have to do with a lot of thought leaders and influencers pushing this.

In my own life/career I have seen that over a long enough horizon that lower shame seems to generally work out for people on the long run if you can back it up with some amount of confidence and competence.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#66

Post by K0balt »

mmillin wrote: post #61

I think a lot of the loss of shame is a result of multiculturalism. The more cultures you accept, the fewer behaviors you can openly shame. As a benign example, eating food with your hands rather than utensils. In some cultures this is rarely ever tolerated, in others it depends on the food item, and in others still you might always eat with your hands. These will be at odds and you have to decide what is OK to shame…

That is an interesting possibility, and seems plausible. When in Rome… becomes not so much about getting along, and more about maintaining social coherence, fostering prosperity and security.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#67

Post by tbrownaw »

exitb wrote: post #57
jhbadger wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That I really don't get (and I experience it a lot using transit for my commute) . It seems more common now, but you'd think it would be less common. Headphones used to be bulky things, now Bluetooth earbuds are tiny things easily put in your pocket -- why not use them?

In some places it's shameful to show one's hair, or to eat while you walk in public. In some, people don't think about those things at all. In others, the ability to do those things can be an expression of personal freedom. What you experience is a cultural difference.

> What you experience is a cultural difference.

In that not all cultures recognize causing negative externalities as a bad thing?

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#68

Post by mrngld »

Makes me think of my boy John Adams; "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Moral relativism is emptiness all the way down, we're reaping what we sowed.

Re: The Death of Shame Is Tearing Us Apart

#69

Post by tbrownaw »

Frieren wrote: post #35

Shame is only effective in a society of equals. If one day you may become my boss better treat you well. If one day anyone may become my neighbor better treat anonymous people well. If my kid may end married with yours then I better treat you well. For billionaires shame makes no sense. They will never have to confront the people that they abuse. Inequality makes consequences go away. The powerful have not shame beca…

> For billionaires shame makes no sense. They will never have to confront the people that they abuse.

This sounds like you're agreeing with the article about consequentialism / "optimization culture" being the cause.

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