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Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

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221–230 of 309 posts

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With hindsight, it wasn't a very good idea to shut down 6 of 12 nuclear reactors. Still much better than the situation in Germany, but that's a very low bar. It will be interesting to see how the Rolls-Royce SMR project works out. Since it appears to be impossible to build anything cheaply in the UK, this will be the real test.

Sweden main issue is that there is no transmission capacity between North and South, like now prices are 2x at south.

Swedens main issue is a political class disconnected from reality.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should this apply only to AI compute facilities or all industries? I have no real evidence for this but I think a general principle of good governance is that the policy is agnostic to the industries which it affects and robust under any set of conditions, so for instance, the price that electric utilities charge should be enough to pay for expansions, either prospectively or retroactively (via loans secured before t…

> I think a general principle of good governance is that the policy is agnostic to the industries which it affects and robust under any set of conditions The trouble with this is that people frequently don't like the consequences of that. For example, a lot of the costs of a grid connection are non-linear if not totally independent of the amount of power you use. When a tree falls on a power line and a crew has to sh…

That's a fair point, but even this kind of "exception" to the electricity tariffs (which gives the appearance of a subsidy and elicits public opposition) can be done in a more agnostic way. E.g. a 100 megawatt AI compute facility can be treated the same as a 100 megawatt aluminum smelter, can be treated the same as a 100 megawatt manufacturing plant. Large concentrated consumers of electricity can be treated differently than smaller consumers, but should all be treated the same as each other.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should this apply only to AI compute facilities or all industries? I have no real evidence for this but I think a general principle of good governance is that the policy is agnostic to the industries which it affects and robust under any set of conditions, so for instance, the price that electric utilities charge should be enough to pay for expansions, either prospectively or retroactively (via loans secured before t…

So, the problem in this case is that there's no gain for the country building the datacentre. If you're in Finland and there are two possible uses for electricity production, let's say, either a steel plant or a datacentre. The steel plant will employ a bunch of people locally. A datacentre will employ a bunch of people in California. So if you are to build a datacentre, the deal must necessarily be that the R&D for…

Okay, that is a fair argument, but the policy that that argument inspires should be implemented in a more agnostic way. There should be some objective measure of "positive economic externalities generated per megawatt of electricity consumed". And projects should be judged on that basis, with projects below a certain threshold either being disallowed or being forced to pay more per megawatt of power consumed on that basis. It shouldn't just be based on some vague intuition, that is largely a product of the virality of the arguments that circulate on social media platforms (like this one).

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Germany is a net exporter of energy and is somehow causing checks notes ALL of Europe's high energy prices? Weird

Germany became a net electricity importer after shutting down its final nuclear power plants in 2023. On top of that, heating still runs mostly on gas, which won't be fun this winter. Due to the inefficiency of gas heating, there will be less gas available for Germany's gas power plants. Now imagine if Germany's dream of hydrogen vehicles, where most hydrogen comes from gas, also became a reality...

By the first quarter of 2026, Germany recorded net exports of 2.6 TWh. In the middle of winter. We are out of the lump.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should this apply only to AI compute facilities or all industries? I have no real evidence for this but I think a general principle of good governance is that the policy is agnostic to the industries which it affects and robust under any set of conditions, so for instance, the price that electric utilities charge should be enough to pay for expansions, either prospectively or retroactively (via loans secured before t…

AI compute is a unique facility: can be placed anywhere, takes in mainly energy, does not produce the same volume or composition of waste, has noise pollution, and needs minimal access. I am not a regulator but that feels like something that needs new rules

AI compute facilities can inspire new regulations, yes, but what I'm advocating is that those regulations should not concern whether the facility is generating AI inference or aluminum or chemicals. All it should care about is the metrics that are relevant to the community like positive externalities, and negative ones like noise pollution, industrial pollution, etc. And all uses of private property should be judged on the basis of those criteria, not what industrial category the use falls under and the generalizations that are made about that category.

My own cursory take on AI compute facilities is that they're mostly much better for the community than previous industries. They emit zero industrial pollution, and only require water for cooling and energy from any source. The water used can also be recycled. And even in the early designs that don't use recycled water, the water consumed is orders of magnitude less than agriculture.

On the downside, they produce fewer jobs, but they encourage and fund infrastructure upgrades in telecom links and power transmission, which has second-order benefits for the local economy.

And they consume very little government services, so the taxes they pay produce a much larger fiscal surplus for local governments.

They also allow for energy that would otherwise be uneconomical to harvest, to be economically harvested. Let's just take an example of a desert which has very little wildlife, and no major nearby populations. AI compute facilities can make it economical to harvest the sunlight in those regions and make economic use of it.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO membership notwithstanding, I don't think anybody in Finland expects the US to ride to rescue if Russia invades.

Why not? It would be easier to justify than the current war in Iran.

It would be incredibly easy to justify helping Ukraine against Putin's terrorism, yet here we are.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#228
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is the most expensive form of clean energy. It is likely to bankrupt at least one company. When Finland contracted with France to build their latest reactor, they wisely had a fixed price contract where the French company would pay for const overruns. At groundbreaking in 2005, they planned for a 2009 completion. In 2016 it bankrupted Areva, with the French government owned EDG saving parts of the company cru…

> new nuclear is not a serious technology It seems to me the main problem is we build so little of it that we don't have the people, skills, supply chains etc to do it well. China generally builds it's reactors on schedule and within budget.

Russia builds a lot of reactors as well. Hence, they were hired to build the Hanhikivi one in Finland, after the French disaster.

Unfortunately, the project was cancelled for moronic political reasons.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the problem in this case is that there's no gain for the country building the datacentre. If you're in Finland and there are two possible uses for electricity production, let's say, either a steel plant or a datacentre. The steel plant will employ a bunch of people locally. A datacentre will employ a bunch of people in California. So if you are to build a datacentre, the deal must necessarily be that the R&D for…

Okay, that is a fair argument, but the policy that that argument inspires should be implemented in a more agnostic way. There should be some objective measure of "positive economic externalities generated per megawatt of electricity consumed". And projects should be judged on that basis, with projects below a certain threshold either being disallowed or being forced to pay more per megawatt of power consumed on that…

It's always good to set up objective criteria for decision so as to prevent corruption, yes.

But when ad-hoc deals are made anyway, then it is more important that principles like those have been applied than that everything is ideal.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#230

Shouldn't we stop pushing the cost of things onto the public, in both CO2 and nuclear contamination? Surely a nuclear reactor is only economical if you don't have to pay for the cost of a Chernobyl type event. Did they assess the costs? Surely they played the costs down as the public is going to pay for the consequences. Shrug. It's so easy to do business this way. The fins also expose themselves to blackmail by an a…

Chernobyl disaster was biggest nuclear accident, but not the biggest disaster related to energy production. In 1975 the failure of the Banqiao Reservoir Dam and other dams in Henan Province, China caused more casualties than any other dam failure in history. The disaster killed an estimated 171,000 people and 11 million people lost their homes. It's not much known in the West because various elements of the Chinese g…

Also it worth mentioning deaths caused by respiratory diseases from coal power plant pollution. This goes in millions
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