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Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

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Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#191

Post by brigandish »

sfn42 wrote: post #161
Illotus wrote: post #118

This is basically due to Google probably rightly believing that electricity price in Finland is going up due to all these datacenters and also a pr stunt that the current government loves because they can claim that they aren't allowing these datacenters to raise electricity price. This isn't investing in power infrastructure in any way, there is no reality where that nuclear plant wasn't staying in operation as long…

> they aren't allowing these datacenters to raise electricity price If you reduce supply,price generally goes up. Buying a power plants output reduces supply

Only if demand increases to the point where supply cannot meet demand in a short enough time frame. Capacity is a factor here.

You buying a doughnut - even half the doughnuts - from a doughnut shop does not increase the price of the remaining doughnuts unless they can't make enough to satisfy remaining demand and people are willing to outbid you rather than wait.

Does that power station have enough capacity to satisfy the remaining demand?

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#192

Post by motionlessveloc »

amelius wrote: post #169

I guess Finland has strong geopolitical security motives here, to create more dependence of the US on them, like in Taiwan.

NATO membership notwithstanding, I don't think anybody in Finland expects the US to ride to rescue if Russia invades.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#193

Post by throwaway473825 »

cloudie78 wrote: post #164
Illotus wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its pretty delusional to suggest that working nuclear plant was going to be decommissioned without this considering that electricity consumption is projected to rise rapidly. There currently is shortage of steady power in Finland so no nuclear plants are gonna be closed barring catastrophes.

You’d be surprised. Case in point Germany.

Did Germany plan to increase electricity consumption? Gas heating is still king there, and Germany famously promotes hydrogen (mostly from gas) over battery vehicles.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#194

Post by kalleboo »

pembrook wrote: post #62
diggernet wrote: post #7

Oh good. Then Google will be "clean", while countless homes will be getting their power from coal or whatever instead of this nuclear plant.

Finland doesn't get the rest of its power from coal, they're one of the greenest energy markets on the planet.

But they export a substantial amount to Estonia, who do

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#195

Post by impossiblefork »

ETH_start wrote: post #84
typ wrote: post #82

I am not against AI data centers. But it's a good thing that the electricity infrastructure expenditures for AI data centers' consumption are paid by the companies making money from AI training and inference, rather than being paid by all taxpayers collectively. Not sure if this particular project is also sponsored by taxpayers' money or not, though.

Should this apply only to AI compute facilities or all industries? I have no real evidence for this but I think a general principle of good governance is that the policy is agnostic to the industries which it affects and robust under any set of conditions, so for instance, the price that electric utilities charge should be enough to pay for expansions, either prospectively or retroactively (via loans secured before t…

So, the problem in this case is that there's no gain for the country building the datacentre.

If you're in Finland and there are two possible uses for electricity production, let's say, either a steel plant or a datacentre. The steel plant will employ a bunch of people locally. A datacentre will employ a bunch of people in California.

So if you are to build a datacentre, the deal must necessarily be that the R&D for the models that are to run on it must happen locally. Otherwise there's no reason to give them the allocation over the steel plant.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#196

Post by throwaway473825 »

jryle70 wrote: post #170
Illotus wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, it certainly wouldn't have been decommissioned in any case. For that to happen electricity consumption would need to be going down instead of up and Finland would need to have abundance of steady power to replace it.

First of all, are you willing to wait to find out? Second of all, if it is not Google, it'd be either other businesses, or from tax money. Why should tax money be used to bail out a failed business?

If it costs only €1 billion to extend the lifespan by 20 years, then nothing else can compete with it. The capacity is 1 GW.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#197

Post by amelius »

motionlessveloc wrote: post #192
amelius wrote: post #169

I guess Finland has strong geopolitical security motives here, to create more dependence of the US on them, like in Taiwan.

NATO membership notwithstanding, I don't think anybody in Finland expects the US to ride to rescue if Russia invades.

Why not? It would be easier to justify than the current war in Iran.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#198

Post by Illotus »

jryle70 wrote: post #170
Illotus wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, it certainly wouldn't have been decommissioned in any case. For that to happen electricity consumption would need to be going down instead of up and Finland would need to have abundance of steady power to replace it.

First of all, are you willing to wait to find out? Second of all, if it is not Google, it'd be either other businesses, or from tax money. Why should tax money be used to bail out a failed business?

No public money needed, it is easily profitable to do without.

And to answer your question: yes I and everyone else in Finland were willkng to wait and find out, it was and is not feasible option to shut it down in few years. If it actually was a realistic option this would have been big news for years now with the highly variable electricity prices we've had after the Russia attack on Ukraine.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#199

Post by Illotus »

cloudie78 wrote: post #164
Illotus wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its pretty delusional to suggest that working nuclear plant was going to be decommissioned without this considering that electricity consumption is projected to rise rapidly. There currently is shortage of steady power in Finland so no nuclear plants are gonna be closed barring catastrophes.

You’d be surprised. Case in point Germany.

Not really. Situation now is totally different to what it was when Germany made those decisions. In Finland shutting down nuclear hasn't really been something that has been discussed seriously in very long time.

Re: Google will buy half the electricity from one of Finland's nuclear power plants

#200

Post by Illotus »

sfn42 wrote: post #161
Illotus wrote: post #118

This is basically due to Google probably rightly believing that electricity price in Finland is going up due to all these datacenters and also a pr stunt that the current government loves because they can claim that they aren't allowing these datacenters to raise electricity price. This isn't investing in power infrastructure in any way, there is no reality where that nuclear plant wasn't staying in operation as long…

> they aren't allowing these datacenters to raise electricity price If you reduce supply,price generally goes up. Buying a power plants output reduces supply

Yes, it is just pr that now that Google invests with Fortum the price wont rise. Its basically just smokescreen.
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