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Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

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Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#231

Post by bluGill »

philwelch wrote: post #224
bluGill wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't have a choice. Corporate IT has choosen what I run my machine on. I have used a native linux machine, but since my email is still on outlook, everybody uses teams, and all the non-code documents are on windows I end up having to have a windows machine. Linux in a VM under windows ends up being the easiest workflow (though I'm just starting to try WSL and so far it is looking good)

Outlook and Teams are both web apps, or at least they were when I last used them. Even if you download the "native" app it's just Electron. I haven't had trouble using either of them on Linux.

Outlook is native. There is the new web version that it says don't use (yet)

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#232

Post by bluGill »

Pannoniae wrote: post #142
bluGill wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly - we have been using C or C++ for decades and most of us have a lot of experience. We think like programmers in the languages meaning we often do things that Rust won't allow without unsafe. A small percent of the time that is the right thing (which is why Rust have unsafe), but very often there is a Rust way that is just as performant if only we knew how to think like Rust programmers.

Sadly it still feels like it's one of the languages where the language doesn't trust you, it tries to force you to do things "the right way". I do love quite a few of its design like how traits are, not forcing every method into the declaration, and the standard library is much less crazy than the C++ version. Sadly, other things a bit less so - the story for the thin battery-less stdlib + npm-style churn encourages…

Most of the time the rust way is just as good, just different.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#233

Post by afdbcreid »

abbefaria27 wrote: post #209

What’s the story for Rust-C++ interoperability these days? That’s what kills adoption. Most C++ devs I know like the idea of Rust, but no one is going to go rewrite 30 years of working code. It needs to be something you can incorporate gradually.

There's an interop initiative by the Rust Foundation, there is a project goal to map the problem space, there was an effort to introduce an attribute (`#[rustc_splat]`) to allow calling overloaded functions, and there are various community-generated tools for more or less automated bindings generation.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#234

Post by zanecodes »

swozey wrote: post #141
ldobre wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, showing the weather is a great excuse to ask permissions for the user location.

I've been doing forest service stuff for a year with almost no signal and often no gps without antenna and it's incredible what asks for location permission to run. My amazon bought LEDs (15+, 3-5 diff types) all check location before I can connect them. I wind up waiting 30 seconds sometimes more to turn lights on. My generator and inverter have to phone home so that lags constantly. Also I've been shadowbanned from…

Android's permission system conflates the Bluetooth scanning permission with the "Fine location" permission, because in theory any app that can enumerate nearby Bluetooth devices (including things like nearby Bluetooth Low Energy beacons commonly found in stores and malls) could use that information to locate your phone within a few hundred feet.

It seems like there's a newer build option to explicitly disable the "Fine location" permission prompt while still being able to scan for Bluetooth devices, but such beacons are somehow filtered from the list if it's enabled, and it's only available for builds targeting newer Android versions.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#235

Post by monocasa »

zahlman wrote: post #212
throwaway27448 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less about pie charts and more that weather apps can be very eyecandy-heavy. This sort of marketing works well for both consumers and board members.

1GB is space for almost half an hour of 5000kbps ("YouTube Premium") video. Just what kind of eye candy are we talking about here?

It's also only 45 frames uncompressed at 4k. It's remarkably easy to hit that if your base assets are mostly raster rather than vector for a dynamic scene.

Obviously, they should try harder, and this is an explanation rather than an excuse, but the graphics assets are mostly why.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#236

Post by saghm »

Surac wrote: post #109
saghm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said for a while that the main reason Rust is so popular is that it has a lot of effort put into the developer experience, with the low-level safety honestly not being all that important to a large portion of the programmers who would be fine with a garbage collector. I used to think that maybe a "Rust with garbage collector" would come along, but at this point it honestly seems more likely that an optional garb…

a rust with gc is already available. it is called c# and runs on all os nowerdays

No, a class-based OO language where you need to spend effort crafting build targets by hand or use an IDE to define how to build is not anything close to what I'm talking about. If you think that it's "Rust with GC", I think you're misunderstanding what actually appeals to most people about Rust.

I'd also argue that "runs on all OS" is true, but "is easy to develop without extra work in a cross-platform way" is not. I've never cloned a Rust project and had trouble building out of the box on Linux, but I'd estimate maybe one out of 20 C# projects I clone from Github build for me out of the box with `dotnet build`; the rest either require me manually tweaking the build configs to avoid stuff like hardcoded Windows-style paths or link to system dependencies that don't exist on Linux. I imagine you might argue that this is a property of how people use the language rather than the language itself, but that doesn't really matter from the standpoint of whether it's worth it for developers who don't use Windows to spend any time trying to invest in the ecosystem.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#237

Post by nicman23 »

swozey wrote: post #152
nicman23 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i prefer the macos mindset if not the actual OS

I just looked and I think what I'm talking about, where they folded more specific permission callouts under a broad term "Full disk access" "local devices" etc used to be more granular before they updated that UI to match the iphone. If I got a jumpscare permission prompt on macos, I used to actually be concerned. Now they're all jumpscares for basic stuff. But I could be misremembering. I haven't liked any of the re…

yeah i mean security is opposite to convenience until it is really really not

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#238

Post by sshine »

zahlman wrote: post #203
ldobre wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, showing the weather is a great excuse to ask permissions for the user location.

What does that have to do with its RAM consumption, though?

What if the user changes location?

Sounds like unbounded, dynamic allocation to me!

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#239

Post by mkehrt »

jodrellblank wrote: post #136
gregw2 wrote: post #122

Those interested in this may find the following articles of interest: Microsoft goals [edit: err, Microsoft hiring manager vision-casting goal ] to convert 1 billion lines of code to rust by 2030 via automated tooling enabling "1 engineer, 1 month, 1 million lines of code": https://thenewstack.io/microsofts-bold-goal-replace-1b-lines... DARPA work towards automating converting C code to Rust using a mix of 6 differen…

That is not "Microsoft goals", that is "one employee's LinkedIn comment of his personal goal".

It's less one guy's plan and more one Microsoft Research team's research goal to investigate technologies that might enable that in a few years. So probably more institutional support than just some guy, but less actually planning on succeeding in the full ambitious goal.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#240

Post by insanitybit »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #29
echelon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of infrastructure is going to be ported to Rust. It's fantastic for websites and servers, and LLMs are very good at generating it. The primary downside of Rust is the long compile times, especially with macros (serde, etc.) If that can be fixed, it will be sublime.

I like Rust a lot but I'm not sure it would come very high up my list for web applications.

At work we're moving almost everything to Rust on our backend. Massively reduced memory usage and significant latency improvements relative to our Typescript codebase. Even for code that you'd expect to work well in TS, a near 1 to 1 port to Rust has considerably improved our best case and, in particular, our worst case latencies. And the memory we get back is huge, we may even drop our instance size down with the 800MB of RAM we're likely going to save.
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