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Stockfish 19

stockfishchess.org

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Re: Stockfish 19

#121

Post by chaps »

bluecalm wrote: post #118
olooney wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. Chess only teaches two general lessons about strategy: look more than one step ahead, and invent heuristics (abstractions that let you estimate if positions are good or bad) for yourself. Those are useful lessons, but you don't need to play thousands of games to grasp those ideas. Other aspects of strategy, like shortening decision loops[1], forming alliances, or the exploration/exploitation tradeoff[3],…

I think chess teaches a lot more. It teaches decision making and resource management. It's very important to consider your options and decide how much time you spend analyzing them. It teaches you things like elimination process (if you have 3 options, one complicated one and 2 simple ones then start analyzing simple ones because if they are bad you just saved a lot of time by not analyzing 3rd one). It also teaches…

You (and others) should check out real time strategy games if your hope is to learn much of what you're sharing here!

Re: Stockfish 19

#122

Post by FartyMcFarter »

strenholme wrote: post #81

Interesting bug or regression. Let’s take the very famous game Kasparov - Topalov, Wijk aan Zee 1999 and look at the position just after Topalov accepts Kasparov’s Rook Sacrifice: https://samboy.github.io/blog/Kasparov.html#RookSacAccepted - https://lichess.org/lwiPq9wB#48 - White to move FEN: b2r3r/k4p1p/p2q1np1/Np1P4/3p1Q2/P4PPB/1PP4P/1K2R3 w - - 0 25 Run the above position in Stockfish 18 with a depth of 25: [1] I…

> I also see the issue on Lichess’s GUI by going to this URL:

> https://lichess.org/lwiPq9wB#48

When I go to that link it shows Black is winning with -1.9 eval at depth 32 with SF19 1MB NNUE! It looks like it got this evaluation from the cloud database.

Re: Stockfish 19

#124

Post by gus_massa »

fph wrote: post #109
noir_lord wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been tried, they feed the evaluation into the LLM and get it to commentate. The results are absolute garbage (as you would expect) since the LLM's really don't understand chess or how to play it, someone posted a benchmark of the current SOTA ones playing Chess and the best was estimated at 1480.

I think OP meant trash talking. "Nice knight on the rim you got there buddy." "How long do you think you'll be able to hold onto that pawn?" "The Latvian gambit, really?"

Both, a nice and a naughty version :)

Re: Stockfish 19

#125

Post by adamt »

dllu wrote: post #34
gwd wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that AlphaZero only really existed for a year or two; there's no objective way to compare it at the moment. Leela Zero tried to open-source that work, but Stockfish incorporated a number of improvements from AlphaZero, including a neural network and a different search method, and consistently beats Leela Zero. I have a book, "Game Changer", in which a chess expert calls out several instances where…

The Stockfish NNUE is completely unrelated to AlphaZero.

"Completely unrelated" is not quite true. Stockfish current NNUE models are trained on LC0 training data. LC0 is pretty much an open-source community replication of the ideas from AlphaZero.

Re: Stockfish 19

#126

Post by strenholme »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #122
strenholme wrote: post #81

Interesting bug or regression. Let’s take the very famous game Kasparov - Topalov, Wijk aan Zee 1999 and look at the position just after Topalov accepts Kasparov’s Rook Sacrifice: https://samboy.github.io/blog/Kasparov.html#RookSacAccepted - https://lichess.org/lwiPq9wB#48 - White to move FEN: b2r3r/k4p1p/p2q1np1/Np1P4/3p1Q2/P4PPB/1PP4P/1K2R3 w - - 0 25 Run the above position in Stockfish 18 with a depth of 25: [1] I…

> I also see the issue on Lichess’s GUI by going to this URL: > https://lichess.org/lwiPq9wB#48 When I go to that link it shows Black is winning with -1.9 eval at depth 32 with SF19 1MB NNUE! It looks like it got this evaluation from the cloud database.

Click on the switch to the left of the evaluation to run a local Stockfish 19 eval of the position.

Showing Black winning in that position is clearly a bug; at 20 ply Stockfish 19 sees a +0.3 edge for White (which is also wrong; it’s about +5 for White, i.e. clearly winning) and only a +0.6 edge at 24 ply.

To be fair, Topalov, right after this game (1999, so before modern computer analysis), analyzed the game for hours with his second and thought Black still had strong drawing chances after accepting the rook sacrifice.

Re: Stockfish 19

#127

Post by dllu »

adamt wrote: post #125
dllu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Stockfish NNUE is completely unrelated to AlphaZero.

"Completely unrelated" is not quite true. Stockfish current NNUE models are trained on LC0 training data. LC0 is pretty much an open-source community replication of the ideas from AlphaZero.

I stand corrected. However, fundamentally, the idea of "tiny CPU-only neural network" combined with traditional alpha-beta search is substantially different from "big GPU network" combined with Monte Carlo Tree Search. And historically the NNUE came from a 2018 idea for shogi engines rather than from AlphaZero.

Re: Stockfish 19

#128

Post by SwellJoe »

jan_m_savage wrote: post #42

I am a fairly good player but after playing 22000 games, I came to the conclusion that ideas and strategies from chess are context-dependent and don't much transfer to real life. I'd rather spend all that time reading up on game theory and play some fun video games, like Red Dead Redemption.

I don't play games for them to "transfer to real life". I play games for fun. Chess can be fun, it has an interesting history and the strategy of various kinds of play open up to you as you play/learn more, it has a structured competition community so you can go places and play with other real people and win fabulous prizes (not really; even some of the best professional players also have real jobs). It's played worldwide, so no matter where you are, you can find people to play with in the real world. It's popular, so there's always someone online you can play against.

Some folks find chess fun and interesting enough to play it and study it all their lives. Other games can also be fun, though it's rare for a game to hold someone's attention throughout their whole life.

Re: Stockfish 19

#130

Post by k2xl »

toasty228 wrote: post #62
k2xl wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer, I’m the founder of chess67.com) There is a very tangible benefit to people playing in chess that has nothing to do with the game itself. One example is for kids - I think kids playing chess (particularly over the board) learn quite a lot from the game. For example, etiquette (being respectful to your opponent), patience, logic, etc… but one of the best things they learn is how to lose. In chess you lose…

> For example, etiquette (being respectful to your opponent), patience, logic, etc… but one of the best things they learn is how to lose. That's valid for pretty much every kids sports/games though

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