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Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

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Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was an era when Windows had near total Desktop market share in businesses - and Notes violated all Windows UI conventions. Enter MS Office (pre-ribbon) and LN was toast. MSFT was so dominant back then that Gates had to rescue Apple to keep up the appearance of a fair market!

Lotus 1-2-3, et al, were killed by MS Office. But Lotus Notes was still selling 20+ million seats a year in 2000. The web killed Notes, not Microsoft.

Outlook 2003 was a major killer of Notes. Office 2003 on Win2k/XP was a killer offering, MSFT at its height of dominance.

Office 2007 introduced the ribbon and got under pressure by the web (GSuite).

But the early aughts? Office 2003 with XML and Sharepoint just wiped out all other stacks, especially Exchange steamrolling Domino and GroupWise.

I was part of a consulting team back then, the transformation projects were all going in one direction. That stack is dominant to this day.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#102
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that Microsoft struggles to hire developers with any knowledge of Windows programming.

Why don't they use their AI solutions for software development?

lol yes

I’m still searching for signs of 10x productivity in SWE showing up in actual consumer facing product improvements industry wide.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#103

As someone who used Lotus Notes 6 for over 2 years at my previous job as the primary email client a few years back (think 2020s), no, it was not a pleasant experience to use Lotus Notes, especially since we had a O365 subscription for everything else and our major customer at the time was Microsoft. After a year at that job, it costed me so much productivity that I had to essentially jerry-rig desktop Outlook to work…

This is my recollection as well. Microsoft was basically the savior back then, when Lotus was viewed as old and hard to maintain. It wasn't unusual hear from colleagues suffering a multi day Notes outage due to sync issues or the bridge being broken. "Hip" companies moved to Outlook and Exchange.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those were the days! Send me an email--I'd love to reconnect!

I was a summer intern for about 3 months. All I really remember was lunch on the Groof and my first experience with Free Tech Soda. I handled a lot of the i18n on the demo stuff, like the chess game.

I18n code is no joke--there's a lot of complexity there. Glad to hear you have fond memories!

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#105
I administered messaging and groupware systems for over 15 years. It was a large chunk of my career. I worked with both Exchange Server/Outlook and Lotus Domino/Notes, and generally preferred Lotus Domino - but both had their issues.

This article doesn't feel like it was written by someone who was using these platforms, nor like anyone was there at the time was consulted.

For example, focusing on F5 is odd. F5 is not the Office refresh key. F9 is. Excel uses it to recalculate. Word uses it to refresh fields. Outlook should have used it to fetch/refresh mail, but for some reason they went with the Windows/IE platform teams' choice of F5. Microsoft did actually switch back to using F9 in Outlook, and there was a significant outcry from their users. None of this is mentioned.

Similarly there's a screenshot of a messagebox stating that there are too many windows. No context given, but I'd bet it's from Loutus Notes 4.6 or earlier, which used MDI. MDI is limited to 9 windows. I hit that limit in a lot of applications back in the late WIndows 3.1/early Windows 95 days, at the peak of MDI. Notes Release 5 moved away from MDI, and gave the user a tabbed interface. The Exchange Mail and Outlook clients never used MDI, opening a new window for each mail - which may or may not be a better solution, given that Windows didn't have task stacking on the taskbar at the time. Nine tabs in Notes was just one taskbar entry, nine windows with Outlook was heading towards a serious usability problem...

I'd like to note that the Notes client didn't benefit from the network effects that Outlook did. At the time many of the complaints in the article were being made software packaging and deployment was in its infancy. Many environments made Notes and Outlook/Office part of their base build making updates a difficult thing to accomplish. Not to mention that the installers were quite large, taxing many networks of the time. But Outlook had the benefit of being part of Office - sometimes people wanted the latest features in Word or Excel, so the effort was made to update the installation. Notes had no such advantage. A similar network effect arrives when it comes to licensing, given that larger organisations will have volume licensing deals.

By contrast on the server side Exchange Server was a complete PITA to upgrade. You don't merely install new software, you build an entire new infrastructure and migrate mailboxes over to it. Very expensive, especially in the days of physical hardware. Whereas Lotus Notes Server/Domino was very easy to upgrade or extend.

As a result many Notes installations were up to date on their backend but not the frontend, whereas many Outlook installations were the other way around.

Anyway, I've gone on for too long - much like all the products we're discussing here. ;-)

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#106
post #40

> “If I want to ‘refresh’ the inbox shouldn’t I press F5? Nope, that will lock the app and require your password to unlock it,” went one of the many complaints collected on Stack Overflow co-founder Jeff Atwood’s blog. “How do I send an email? CTRL+ENTER? Of course not! ALT+1, naturally.” I don't know if I want to fault Lotus for that. As someone who juggles between Windows, Mac and Linux on a daily basis, using wron…

As a user of Notes in the mid-late 90s, I found it suuuper annoying. Also, do you want a horizontal scroll bar when the content is too wide for the window? No problem, just turn on the option in the menu. (And then it will be there all the time, whether it's needed or not.)

I was administering a small Domino server and using Notes for email. I think it was the worst thing I worked on at the time.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lotus 1-2-3, et al, were killed by MS Office. But Lotus Notes was still selling 20+ million seats a year in 2000. The web killed Notes, not Microsoft.

Outlook 2003 was a major killer of Notes. Office 2003 on Win2k/XP was a killer offering, MSFT at its height of dominance. Office 2007 introduced the ribbon and got under pressure by the web (GSuite). But the early aughts? Office 2003 with XML and Sharepoint just wiped out all other stacks, especially Exchange steamrolling Domino and GroupWise. I was part of a consulting team back then, the transformation projects wer…

This. Microsoft was very aggressive in courting CIOs and senior management, and had a great sales team.

I remember hearing that they had a storage calculator spreadsheet that would allow you to calculate how many IOPS you'd need from your storage to deploy Exchange.

Everyone I knew working with Notes or other products was gobsmacked. Why would you need that? Just buy decent storage. Nobody outside of the Exchange world cared about IOPS, unless you were dealing with of high thousands of users on one machine/cluster.

But the Exchange Server storage layer was a total dog's breakfast. (And not a healthy dog, either.) So disk performance was much more important for them.

And that spreadsheet was like crack for the senior management layer. They suddenly got to play with the numbers of users, mails per hour, mailbox quotas - then feel like they had involvement. They had input. They could go to their storage vendors with those figures and speak authoratitively about their requirements.

Those vendors would humour them, and sell them the exact same array that everyone else was buying for that capacity requirement and budget.

But Microsoft had turned a weakness into a strength, by making the managers feel like they had real input into the process.

Honestly, that spreadsheet was a genius move that it took me years to understand.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#108

So... PLATO user, Notes user and Thunderbird user here with a couple of notes. a. Everything you think is new was created in the 1960s by Don Bitzer @ UIUC or Doug Engelbart @ SRI. (and probably also Robert Creasy @ IBM.) b. Lotus Notes (and Groove) were products, not protocols. If you wanted to use them, you used Windows and the server and client from the vendor. c. Lotus Notes only sort of worked over the intarwebs…

I worked with Notes for 15 years, and your point C baffles me. Could you please elaborate?

I still remember the Notes/Domino Server TCP port number - 1352. I've used it so often in firewall configurations or communications with customers and firewall teams.

I had servers hosting data for replication to customers over the internet. (Including patent data, very sensitive in both security and timeliness). We never had any issues connecting servers over the internet. It was easy, reliable and simple.

It was also very secure due to the PKI infrastructure built into Notes, the ability to require encrypted network traffic, and the various layers of security on the server.

Plus the NRPC protocol has its own proxying feature, called "Passthru Servers". That allows clients or servers to connect to other servers via an intermediate server - and that intermediate can actually blacklist or whitelist other clients/servers from using it. It's all very easy to implement, a core part of the product that any Notes administrator should know about.

But what really confuses me is you talking about AD. You can do some integration with AD and Lotus Notes, but out of the box it uses its own directory and PKI infrastructure. That's famously one of the things people held against it - that it didn't use AD or NDS. If you did turn on the AD integration then I guess you'd need access to AD, but that's your decision - and the downsides of it are much the same for any local client software you're trying to authenticate via your AD.

I simply can't reconcile what you've said with my experience. So I'm very interested to understand what you're getting at there.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#109
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that Microsoft struggles to hire developers with any knowledge of Windows programming.

Why don't they use their AI solutions for software development?

WebView Outlook predates AI agents getting good.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#110
post #62

So... PLATO user, Notes user and Thunderbird user here with a couple of notes. a. Everything you think is new was created in the 1960s by Don Bitzer @ UIUC or Doug Engelbart @ SRI. (and probably also Robert Creasy @ IBM.) b. Lotus Notes (and Groove) were products, not protocols. If you wanted to use them, you used Windows and the server and client from the vendor. c. Lotus Notes only sort of worked over the intarwebs…

> But... after more than 50 years in tech, I still use Thunderbird as my email client. If I could figure out a way to get it to turn off HTML mail I would. view -> message body as -> plain text :)

>view -> message body as -> plain text :)

In v153.2.0ESR, it's More --> message body as --> plain text

and it absolutely does work.

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