Live data from Hacker News

Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

buttondown.com

41–50 of 122 posts

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#41
So... PLATO user, Notes user and Thunderbird user here with a couple of notes.

   a. Everything you think is new was created in the 1960s by Don
      Bitzer @ UIUC or Doug Engelbart @ SRI.  (and probably also
      Robert Creasy @ IBM.)

   b. Lotus Notes (and Groove) were products, not protocols.  If
      you wanted to use them, you used Windows and the server and
      client from the vendor.

   c. Lotus Notes only sort of worked over the intarwebs.  It had
      serious problems traversing firewalls, and technically worked
      over VPNs, but was nearly unusable as it required you to
      either replicate your AD server or use AD over the VPN (I do
      not recommend the latter option.)

   d. Like JIRA, in order to do anything interesting with Lotus
      Notes, you effectively had to have admin privileges.  This
      isn't strictly true, but it's effectively true.  Both JIRA
      and Lotus Notes were designed for organizations whose thinky
      bits were managed centrally.  Have a site or department
      specific process?  Better schedule time with your admin to
      talk about how they're going to model your work-flow because
      there's no way you're going to be able to build it yourself.

      Groove was a little better, but it was disturbingly easy for
      the brittle XML based DTDs used to model data to become out
      of sync between users.  Guess it's time to restore from
      backup.

   e. As much as I loved PLATO, it was a centralized / mainframe
      type system.  Of course it was easy to coordinate via a notes
      file, it was a single file on a centrally shared,
      non-replicated volume that (usually) had very loose write
      permissions.

      The reason notes (or it's bastard offspring Lotus Notes)
      didn't take over the world was it put all the thinky bits in
      one place, probably locked down by a BOFH.  There's little we
      learned from the micro-computer revolution from the 70s and
      80s, but what we did seem to get is we all hated being
      dependent on that one guy from accounting to write a few
      COBOL programs for us so we could see what our sales figures
      looked like this month.

   It seems weird we're comparing PLATO NOTES with Lotus Notes
   email.  PNOTES (Personal Notes) was the equivalent of email.
   NOTES was more the equivalent of Usenet News.

   And Notes was an application environment w/ data replication
   that had a shim layer on top of it that looked like an email
   system.  It was more like Hypercard with git-ish semantics.
   (Which now that I think about it, wouldn't be that bad of a
   product.)

   But... after more than 50 years in tech, I still use Thunderbird
   as my email client.  If I could figure out a way to get it to
   turn off HTML mail I would.  I'm on the vanguard of the orange
   catholic butlerian jihad.  Not only do I seek a prohibition of
   thinking machines, I'm also quite suspcious of richly formatted
   text.

   Maybe the reason (Lotus) Notes failed was that people kept
   thinking of it as an email client.  Raymond Lowey talked about
   the "Most Advanced Yet Acceptable" principle.  Meaning you can
   push product design only so far before people no longer
   understand how they're expected to integrate it into their
   lives.  Lotus Notes was the poster child for this concept.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#42
In the 90’s I worked for a large retailer. Our centralized systems were on IBM mainframes, with some Unix servers for specialized work. We ran a small Unix server - really just a decent PC - in the stores. We had very low end machines running DOS-based terminal emulators for POS, etc.

Senior management wanted a some kind of communication platform for store employees. Something that could handle shared, broadcast comms to all employees, but also individualized comms to store managers, and ideally even questionnaire-like forms for surveys and the like. The entire system had to be secure and tightly controlled, e.g. employee A at store 1 shouldn’t be able to email employee B at store 2.

At some point we’d adopted using Lotus Notes at the HQ as platform de jour. (previously we were all in on PowerBuilder apps, remember that?).

It was no surprise, then, when IBM flew a one of our VPs to Cambridge (or maybe Boca Raton as part of another deal…) and he came back and announced we had purchased something like 50,000 seats for Lotus Notes and were implementing it as a store comm system.

A colleague and I were part of the architectural team. We didn’t have much of a formalized practice in those days, but we’d both been involved in the design and implementation of a lot of key store systems, and we weren’t idiots. We pointed out we’d never tested this sort of thing.

The Lotus team suggested installing Notes in a test store. We pointed out we had no compatible Windows equipment in the store. They suggested accessing Notes remotely. I can’t recall how. Unfortunately, our store networking system was Very Small Aperture Terminal satellite-based. High bandwidth, but also high latency, something like 3-4 seconds. Interactive apps over VSAT just didn’t cut it.

Now my memory of all details is a little fuzzy after 30 years, but as I recollect, Notes could effectively work offline, and then synchronize when back online. This was a cool feature for distributing apps and data. So, of course, the Lotus teams said the obvious, “Just purchase a separate server for Notes in the stores, and we can sync to that, and then all access will be local.”

Did I mention this was Retail?

Suffice it to say when we told Sr Mgmt the solution was going to require purchasing a dedicated server for every location (we were growing like crazy those days), the whole thing came to a screeching halt, and the 50K seat deal was cancelled. Someone lost a nice commission.

At the time I didn’t blame IBM. They were just acting on very incomplete information. Our VP, and old MF guy who now had responsibility for “Distributed Systems” as well, should have had an internal review before committing. I suspect he didn’t get any IBM Christmas cards that year.

Did we adopt standard email for comms? Oh, heck no. We rolled our own Frankenstein implementation of a backend and client, replete with our first C app on MVS. That’s a story for another day.

Notes stayed alive as our internal email, etc client for quite a while longer. I even got it running under Red Hat Linux, courtesy of Wine. Eventually the wheel turned, and we moved to something else. Was it better? No.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SMTP predates Notes by nearly a decade.

This. Any engineer or manager developing Notes at the time had to be aware of X.400 and X.500, and SMTP. They decided to ignore them. However cool and useful and clumsy Notes was, it was a proprietary walled garden. Lotus and the IBM hawked it, and surely profited. But for the customer it was an expense. Eventually Notes was overtaken by Metcalf’s Law, and the fact that cheaper always wins. That and, you know, Micros…

Sure, but Notes was built for a world where ccMail, MS Mail, and GroupWise were the main workgroup email systems.

Notes followed a similar pattern, with a proprietary "post office" system with optional gateways to larger x.400 / SMTP / UUCP / OfficeVision networks for those who needed them.

Going SMTP (or even x.400)-native from the start might have been a better choice in the long run, but that's only clear in retrospect - it certainly wasn't obvious at the time.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#44
post #40

> “If I want to ‘refresh’ the inbox shouldn’t I press F5? Nope, that will lock the app and require your password to unlock it,” went one of the many complaints collected on Stack Overflow co-founder Jeff Atwood’s blog. “How do I send an email? CTRL+ENTER? Of course not! ALT+1, naturally.” I don't know if I want to fault Lotus for that. As someone who juggles between Windows, Mac and Linux on a daily basis, using wron…

The larger point - which they made poorly - seems to be that Notes made a lot of decisions that probably were fine alone. However nothing stands alone, and everybody else made a different decision.

Some of the different decisions everybody made were for good reason. I know Apple and [later] Microsoft spent a large amount of money on human factors engineers doing real experiments to figure out what worked. I have never seen evidence that Lotus spent the money to see what was a good idea - they just made it work.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SMTP predates Notes by nearly a decade.

This. Any engineer or manager developing Notes at the time had to be aware of X.400 and X.500, and SMTP. They decided to ignore them. However cool and useful and clumsy Notes was, it was a proprietary walled garden. Lotus and the IBM hawked it, and surely profited. But for the customer it was an expense. Eventually Notes was overtaken by Metcalf’s Law, and the fact that cheaper always wins. That and, you know, Micros…

On the other hand, anyone working on Notes would also be aware that its relationship with email is closer to today's Sharepoint than to today's Exchange. Email was one small aspect of a massive featureset; Notes was ahead of its time in terms of CRM/ERP/one-platform-for-everything that drives modern businesses like Oracle and Salesforce.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#46
It's 2026 and I am still in the middle of porting our notes databases to web. Notes is still the main platform for our applications, we have around 50 or so. I have a lot of respect for what notes is and what it enabled developers to do and I try to bring some ideas of it to the platform I am building. Funny enough today is exactly the day I did the initial commit on the new project one year ago. Happy birthday to my platform i guess.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#47
post #40

> “If I want to ‘refresh’ the inbox shouldn’t I press F5? Nope, that will lock the app and require your password to unlock it,” went one of the many complaints collected on Stack Overflow co-founder Jeff Atwood’s blog. “How do I send an email? CTRL+ENTER? Of course not! ALT+1, naturally.” I don't know if I want to fault Lotus for that. As someone who juggles between Windows, Mac and Linux on a daily basis, using wron…

[deleted]

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#48
post #46

It's 2026 and I am still in the middle of porting our notes databases to web. Notes is still the main platform for our applications, we have around 50 or so. I have a lot of respect for what notes is and what it enabled developers to do and I try to bring some ideas of it to the platform I am building. Funny enough today is exactly the day I did the initial commit on the new project one year ago. Happy birthday to my…

I was a Lotus Notes developer for more than 10 years. The speed at which you could develop useful software was mind-blowing. I started with Notes 4.5, IIRC, and ended my time around Notes 8.

The first few years were a little heavy on RAM usage, so people thought it was slow. To give you some context, this was back when 16 MB (megabytes, not gigabytes) of RAM was a thing. But as RAM increased, Notes was no longer a problem.

For example, Lotus Notes 8, which I still have on my personal PC, uses about 11 MB just after starting. Then it adds roughly 10 MB for each "app" you open. Today, Outlook alone uses around 170 MB just after starting.

It was incredibly powerful. And migrating a Domino server was incredibly easy. Basically, you just copied the DATA folder. I remember doing this when we migrated from Windows 2000/2003 to AIX.

In the same way, the Notes client was basically a portable app. You could just copy the NOTES and DATA folder, edit notes.ini, and have it running.

So sad to see it go.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SMTP predates Notes by nearly a decade.

This. Any engineer or manager developing Notes at the time had to be aware of X.400 and X.500, and SMTP. They decided to ignore them. However cool and useful and clumsy Notes was, it was a proprietary walled garden. Lotus and the IBM hawked it, and surely profited. But for the customer it was an expense. Eventually Notes was overtaken by Metcalf’s Law, and the fact that cheaper always wins. That and, you know, Micros…

in 1990 the internet was something talked about on your BBS as a mystical place you couldn't get access to except as a student. Lots of places had email, but it was unusual for anyone to be connected to any other system. Sometimes a BBS was part of fidonet, but that was rare (and there were many many less known networks).

Even if your typical big company did have a gateway for their internal email to other companies, odds are very few people used that gateway for business. If you wanted to communicate with somebody in a different company you dialed the phone or sent a fax.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#50
My first exposure to Lotus Notes was to work on a migration project that was moving from Notes to "Exchange WebStorage System" (WebDAV) - which was an aborted "go-nowhere" server/service which ended-up being replaced by SharePoint ("Teams Services") - which we had to also re-target mid-project.

We faced a situation where we had about 4,000 custom Notes apps to migrate, a small team and an extremely limited time. (and varying levels of complexity in each app)

What we found we could do, was "expose" the apps as "Notes Web" apps, and extract much of the UI/UX, and other artifacts - then we wrote conversion utilities.

We were able to get the migration time for simple apps down to the time it took us to demonstrate our framework... (20 minutes per app).

However - quite honestly, the more I saw of Notes at the time, the more I asked "Why migrate?". As the feature-set of early "SharePoint" was not even "at par" with Notes - even now, with the myriad of M365/desktop/app integrations, it is generally "just ok" and does not feel "cohesive".

Post reply on HN