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Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

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Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#81
As someone who used Lotus Notes 6 for over 2 years at my previous job as the primary email client a few years back (think 2020s), no, it was not a pleasant experience to use Lotus Notes, especially since we had a O365 subscription for everything else and our major customer at the time was Microsoft. After a year at that job, it costed me so much productivity that I had to essentially jerry-rig desktop Outlook to work with the Domino server on my machine just so I don't have to fight it every step of the way.

The issue with Lotus Notes is that there was too much low-level machinery exposed directly to the client, and things you would expect to work with a basic email client, like .ics invites, simply never works right. There was no good dev environment for it, and most of the "develop your own app" feature was locked by corporate policy anyways so we pretty much had the worst of both worlds.

All in all, not something I would recommend to actually use, the only thing it really helped me see is that OneNote's lineage from Lotus Note as I think a lot of the original Lotus Note devs jumped to Microsoft at the time.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#82
I did some development work years ago on IBM Lotus Domino. The UI and development features were a dumpster fire, both in the native Notes thick client application and on the web. But there was huge potential in the back-end Domino platform that IBM just threw away through lack of vision. They had a NoSQL document database with multi-master replication and public key security infrastructure before it was cool. It could have been a real competitor to other DB platforms like MongoDB or Couchbase. But IBM never positioned Domino that way and it was always crippled by limitations on maximum database size, lack of XML / JSON support, and crappy SDKs for common languages like Java.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#83

My first exposure to Lotus Notes was to work on a migration project that was moving from Notes to "Exchange WebStorage System" (WebDAV) - which was an aborted "go-nowhere" server/service which ended-up being replaced by SharePoint ("Teams Services") - which we had to also re-target mid-project. We faced a situation where we had about 4,000 custom Notes apps to migrate, a small team and an extremely limited time. (and…

Agree with that, I've used both Notes heavily in the past and SharePoint/Exchange as a software engineer exposed to them and Notes always felt more cohesive. Notes (and Oracle products) get dumped on in discussions on Reddit and sometimes on HN but Notes worked well and was very consistent, Oracle products too for that matter, in my experience. Notes and Sametime also worked very well on Linux on my IBM work laptop,…

Sametime had to work in Java Applets so portability was key. IIRC our biggest customer was the Australian navy.

I was briefly what is now called a developer-in-test on Sametime after Lotus Development bought them. I was untrained in C++ so my bug reports for that API were frequently closed with the comment "No".

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#84
post #26

I'm confused. Where does this article say anything about starting from scratch? Is there a chunk of the story missing? It jumps straight from talking about PLATO Notes to referring to Lotus Notes. There is a "spoiler alert" in there about IBM acquiring Lotus for Notes, but it doesn't spoil anything in this story. Did IBM try to rewrite it from scratch or something? What's happening?

>Did IBM try to rewrite it from scratch or something? In a way yes, IBM wanted notes to be an email clone. IBM took cc mail (I think) and shoehorned it into Lotus notes. To me, that ruined Notes. If I get the versions numbers right, version 3 was great, IBM/Lotus came out with v4, which to me was a bit worse, and each new version was worse than the prior. Instead of focusing on emails, IBM should have focused on maki…

The IBM Lotus Notes mail client and cc:Mail were developed independently by separate teams in different locations. Both were originally built by independent companies that were later acquired. cc:Mail was killed in 2000. IBM might have added some Notes features to achieve functional parity with cc:Mail and make it easier for customers to migrate.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#85
As a contractor sysadmin at the time, managing both Exchange and Notes/Domino, I loved Notes for the simplicity of dealing with backups, to tape and over the VPN.

You mark the database as read only, copy the .nsf file over, unmark the database as read only, done. Brightstor had a plugin for Notes that did that automatically and could do incremental backups with ease.

Move to Exchange and it's horrible single file mail storage solution which was inconceivable when hard drives weren't that big. 10,000 users? It's 100MB of mail so it can fit nicely in a single storage volume. Backups? Well, only at night because you have to unmount the file from Exchange, copy it over, and mount it again, which took a good couple of hours.

I miss Notes "simplicity".

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#86
The worst thing about notes was its ui revamp in 8. It was heavy and slow, I tended to run classic ui. Yes f5 was an issue but only until you did it a couple of times then you remembered.

It was funny I recall never having much to do on the domino server, and even the client was pretty stable. When we migrated to Outlook there were non stop server side issues.

The fact it had a built in DB was really useful for extension as well.

Imo it was ahead of its time and heavily hamstring by Outlook dominance as any nee user landing hated it simply because it wasn't outlook

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#87

My first exposure to Lotus Notes was to work on a migration project that was moving from Notes to "Exchange WebStorage System" (WebDAV) - which was an aborted "go-nowhere" server/service which ended-up being replaced by SharePoint ("Teams Services") - which we had to also re-target mid-project. We faced a situation where we had about 4,000 custom Notes apps to migrate, a small team and an extremely limited time. (and…

As a former Notes user (email, cal, plus apps for expense tracking, etc) - what did Notes in was the horrendous, non-Windows user interface. The second half of the article here is spot on, if anyone bothers to read it. Nice to see those old site ridiculing Notes, Jeff Atwood et al - a blast from the past! As an end-user, I welcomed Notes demise. And don't get me started on its god-awful local/offline sync behavior. O…

I was part of the small team that added Exchange Offline mode very, very late in the product cycle specifically to counter the Notes Local Replication story.

We were asked for something quick and easy, but decided to put the effort in to make it the correct way for the Exchange architecture.

The bulk of that code is still there 30 years later.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#88

Lotus Notes was underrated imo. We used it as a combo Helpdesk ticketting, email, wiki/doc tool and it worked so well. It took 20 years for other tools to catch up and webapps still arent as functional.

> Lotus Notes was underrated imo.

For what it was, yes.

For what a great many people used it for on the other hand…

It was a great platform for making document and workflow control applications, and was ahead of its time in terms of a proper PKI system for authentication/access/verification and access control lists and such. But many people hit a poorly made application and that coloured their opinion for the rest, and in the list of terrible applications I'm including the standard email support, which was a royal PITA, and most custom versions for that function. The general UX wasn't great either, not so bad that you couldn't put up with it for a great application but if you are hating the rest of the application then the general UX issues grind your gears too.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#89
I was at a company acquired by IBM, and left within two years. When asked by HR at my exit interview why I was leaving I honestly answered "Lotus Notes".

My reasoning (which I ranted on extensively for the rest of the interview) was that mandating Lotus Notes as a tool internally, let alone continuing to sell it, reflected very poorly on how IBM felt about their employees, customers, and products. Examples:

* for YEARS IBM had to ship a "killnotes.exe" utility to their own employees because they couldn't figure out how to gracefully exit the app - and that's just one papercut out of hundreds;

* they misrepresented the popularity of the product, as the number of seats sold was tied to other bundled deals - most customers wouldn't touch the product;

* they continually gaslit employees and customers that Notes was great for common workflows (email in particular, searching in general) where in fact it was overwhelmingly a failure - and anyone who complained "didn't understand the product";

* they would send out multiple-choice surveys on "How would you like to improve Notes?" with every question and possible answer tied to developer-focused and database features with nothing allowing feedback on the primary use-cases that were driving users up the wall

In the end IBM's stance on Notes was either tone-deaf, incompetent, mendacious, malicious, opportunistic, extractive, callous, or shameless with no sense of pride in product.

I'm still bitter. Man, I hated that product.

Re: Lotus Notes and the dangers of starting from scratch

#90
post #62

So... PLATO user, Notes user and Thunderbird user here with a couple of notes. a. Everything you think is new was created in the 1960s by Don Bitzer @ UIUC or Doug Engelbart @ SRI. (and probably also Robert Creasy @ IBM.) b. Lotus Notes (and Groove) were products, not protocols. If you wanted to use them, you used Windows and the server and client from the vendor. c. Lotus Notes only sort of worked over the intarwebs…

> But... after more than 50 years in tech, I still use Thunderbird as my email client. If I could figure out a way to get it to turn off HTML mail I would. view -> message body as -> plain text :)

If only that worked.
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