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On Really Trying (2009)

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Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#21

Post by n4r9 »

noduerme wrote: post #16
n4r9 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have high expectations of them and are gravely, mortally disappointed if they let us down That sounds like a recipe for long-term psychological complexes. I know plenty of high-achievers that don't constantly feel like they have to prove themselves. And I wish I didn't have to work so hard to challenge that feeling in myself.

I don't know any high achievers who don't feel they have to prove themselves, so maybe I'm in the wrong cirles. It absolutely is a recipe for all kinds of long term complexes. But when you do work hard and you are satisfied with yourself, that satisfaction comes from something greater than yourself. Having no goal is worse than having an artificial one... and achieving something to make your dead parents happy is bet…

> when you do work hard and you are satisfied with yourself

Ime if you constantly need to prove yourself then you rarely feel this; when you do, the feeling is ephemeral.

> achieving something to make your dead parents happy is better than achieving nothing at all

This feels circular. It assumes a value judgement about achievement which stems from your upbringing.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#22

Post by noduerme »

jl6 wrote: post #19
noduerme wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

So where did it all go wrong, to end up with you posting comments like this?

Ahhh, finally a good question.

I've just been sucked into the same online shitstorm as everyone else, I guess. I'm posting right now directly after reading tonight's clickbait about the woman who got sentenced for child abuse for letting her 5 year old kid walk a few blocks alone in a gated community. Transposing that to all this, it makes me think about what impacted me, my family and my cohort and allowed us to be self-sufficient, and further, the whole commentary demonstrates that such things are perceived by a good chunk of the population as "abuse" when they're really tools you need to give your children which other people would love to deprive you of giving to your children. I am an example of someone who would be nothing without the framework of expectations and responsibilities I was given at an early age (including at times radical freedom that I had to use judiciously or else face extreme disappointment) so I'm speaking in defense of that style of parenting.

But as to why I'm here writing in the middle of the night, it's pretty much on myself and my own addictions. I should be doing something more productive.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#23

Post by bildung »

noduerme wrote: post #9
zshn wrote: post #8

Strangely reading about high achievers having had a difficult childhood and how it might have actually "enabled" them to achieve what they did, is soothing in a way. It's nice to think of your own scars as a thing that helps you sometimes instead of only a burden.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

Empirically, the causality you state there is simply wrong, and clearly so. The psychological abuse you have suffered usually at least leads to anxious attachment, i.e. the inability to form healthy bonds with other people, as well as higher probability of social anxiety, depression and suicidality. You've just fallen victim to survivorship bias here - if you were one of the kids that got broken more severly by their parents, you wouldn't post here.

You don't have to abuse children for them to grow up into functioning and healthy adults. That simply is ideology not rooted in any kind of data.

There is a parenting style called authoritative (not authoritarian! Authoritarian is what you had to suffer through) that is characterized by both clear and unwavering secure attachment (i.e. the kid always knows it is loved and protected, even if it got a bad grade in school or did something stupid) and clear, well-communicated and understandable rules and high, but achievable performance targets.

signed, an educational science phd who never was punished for a bad grade in his entire time in school even once, yet developed the discipline of doing a part time phd while already working and being a parent anyway.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#24

Post by noduerme »

bgilroy26 wrote: post #18
noduerme wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

Once you've made it this far, the new spectrum everyone is measured on is their magnanimity. It's okay that you didn't turn out to be that magnanimous, but don't lie to yourself and pretend that you tried as hard as you could You had more in your humanity tank than you knew you had

It's not that I'm not magnanimous.

I've got lots in the humanity tank.

I just reserve the right to speak honestly, and I'm also willing to have my mind changed. Lots of hypocritical assholes are magnanimous as a gesture. I'll spend 2 hours telling a homeless guy he's not Jesus and he's ruining his life and try to find him a job. I did that a couple nights ago. But that isn't magnanimity, fuck no. It's some kind of sheer Dostoevskyan desire to see humanity in everyone I meet because the token value of mine is only as good as theirs. That's how I define morality. Magnanimity can go to hell.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#25

Post by skrebbel »

noduerme wrote: post #9
zshn wrote: post #8

Strangely reading about high achievers having had a difficult childhood and how it might have actually "enabled" them to achieve what they did, is soothing in a way. It's nice to think of your own scars as a thing that helps you sometimes instead of only a burden.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

> if they can even read ;)

No need, they have videos.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#26

Post by noduerme »

n4r9 wrote: post #21
noduerme wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know any high achievers who don't feel they have to prove themselves, so maybe I'm in the wrong cirles. It absolutely is a recipe for all kinds of long term complexes. But when you do work hard and you are satisfied with yourself, that satisfaction comes from something greater than yourself. Having no goal is worse than having an artificial one... and achieving something to make your dead parents happy is bet…

> when you do work hard and you are satisfied with yourself Ime if you constantly need to prove yourself then you rarely feel this; when you do, the feeling is ephemeral. > achieving something to make your dead parents happy is better than achieving nothing at all This feels circular. It assumes a value judgement about achievement which stems from your upbringing.

We are taught that achievement means value. Circularly, we value ourselves for achievements and we inculcate this in our children.

It is a value judgment. It's one that not everyone shares. It's surprising to me that a majority of people find it to be a controversial.

I think what's actually going on here in this thread is that people think any value judgment must be a bad thing. Right?

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#27

Post by b3lvedere »

noduerme wrote: post #17
OtherShrezzing wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So we're all lawyers, doctors and engineers, I'd assume from the rest of your post that you'd all become olympians, astronauts, high ranked politicians, or founders of mega-corps. These are all fairly run-of-the-mill careers your family entered into, and plenty of people (I'd guess close to 100%) enter these roles without the type of abuse you suffered. Hopefully the mortal disappointment you project onto your kids…

Why? When I was a teenager I really thought their demands were unfair. When I was a dropout and a taxi driver in my 20s, I blamed my parents. When I became a millionaire based on finding something I loved and doing it very well, even though they disapproved and didn't support me in it, I finally was able to thank them for giving me the intellectual tools to do that for myself. And interestingly, unexpectedly, they fi…

Money aside, would you consider yourself being happy?

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#28

Post by akho »

noduerme wrote: post #13
BlobberSnobber wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of inefficiency being displayed by such a high-pressure, high-performance, individual. You could've just written "my childhood fucking sucked and I obviously developed some issues, but I justify it as it being good, since I have achieved some level of success, as defined by the circles I dwell in". Also, wasting time commenting on a social platform? Disappointing. Edit: clicked the profile, it's just a t…

heh. Well, I do comment here when I just finished a project and I'm up late drinking. My childhood didn't suck at all. That's really a misinterpretation. Here's an example. When I was 5 years old, my parents took me on the Concorde from New York to London. I remember the trip very well and learning what the Mach sign at the front of the cabin meant. The flight attendants gave me some neat models and stuff that I stil…

children from families flying Concorde grow up to be doctors and lawyers, news at 11

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#29

Post by noduerme »

akho wrote: post #28
noduerme wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

heh. Well, I do comment here when I just finished a project and I'm up late drinking. My childhood didn't suck at all. That's really a misinterpretation. Here's an example. When I was 5 years old, my parents took me on the Concorde from New York to London. I remember the trip very well and learning what the Mach sign at the front of the cabin meant. The flight attendants gave me some neat models and stuff that I stil…

children from families flying Concorde grow up to be doctors and lawyers, news at 11

That's not really the news.

Guy grew up in Russia with no indoor plumbing, forced to drop out of school at 12, has 7 brothers and sisters killed in a genocide, flees conscription at 15, broke on a train to Holland then a boat to Argentina where he speaks no Spanish, ends up in America at 21 and becomes a Spanish translator, works as a cloth cutter and a bartender, buys a farm on a patch of arid desert, sends his kid to college, the first person in the family ever to go to college. Kid becomes a lawyer. Kid has kids and takes his children and his father on the Concorde, where they meet members of the British Parliament.

This man also locates and rescues his brother from a displaced persons camp in Cyprus after WWII. Brother could barely speak. Brother marries woman he met in Auschwitz and has two children who are the next people in their family to go to college. They become doctors.

I grew up with this man. He believed in achievement and a human soul.

The news is this: Dismissiveness, anger and dejection do nothing.

With regard to my grandfather's style of expectations and parenting, it was less than my father's. A young man in my grandfather's village had hung himself after getting bad marks in school. My grandfather was afraid my father would hang himself if he pushed him too hard. He was gentler.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#30

Post by Xmd5a »

noduerme wrote: post #9
zshn wrote: post #8

Strangely reading about high achievers having had a difficult childhood and how it might have actually "enabled" them to achieve what they did, is soothing in a way. It's nice to think of your own scars as a thing that helps you sometimes instead of only a burden.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

> I expect to be downvoted for this, but before you click that arrow, remember the good news is that our kids will be smart and self-reliant and yours will be helplessly reduced to voting on social platforms, if they can even read ;)

you sound like a cunt, seriously, and have no idea what this attempt at stepping back tells about you. That makes you transparent, really any shrink would be like "ah yes, of course, that was to be expected". It's the only reason I'm replying back (no downvotes though, those are for spam). We get it you absorbed sadism from your parents. Why don't you tell us about the other side as well, all these moments of astheny when you're not flamboyant but ashy?

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