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Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

theguardian.com

181–189 of 189 posts

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#181
post #177
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The toothbrush is a moot point if you have a separate be bathroom and toilet. If they are combined the spread of fecal particles is curbed by flushing the toilet with closed lid. And in the end the toothbrush is flushed before using and then coated with toothpaste, which often contains detergents and microbial agenda, and which is finally flushed out. I don't think you can conclude from that incident that all soap is…

My point was that you seemed incredibly positive that Japan houses o'clean, and the rest of the world is as apes, in caves, picking parasites off of each others backs. This obsession with shoes, doesn't cover the fly droppings, the dirt upon clothing, and the fact that your body is always covered in bacteria, your gut filled with bacteria, your lunch covered in it if you ever eat fresh greens, you will die without ba…

Strange to make such assumptions about my perspectives.

I was simply explaining a foreign culture where removing shoes when coming indoors, and In confused that somehow my familiarity with these traditions is somehow indicative of my life experience or familiarity with microbes. Quite strange indeed. Lets clarify these assumptions.

In fact I was raised in a ranching and dairy household with over 600 head of beef at the dairy, and about 1600 head of beef at the ranch, each of which was owned or managed in various stages by my two grandfathers. Ihave previously lived for a few months less than a full decade in the middle of actual jungle in one of the rainiest locations on the planet without any infrastructure - literally a mile from the nearest paved road, and 3/4 of a mile from the closest vehicular access point with long periods of the year being closed off from that by high water on both sides. No power lines, no water lines, and out of the reach of cell service, so gasp, no internet!

During that time my wife and cared for over twenty goats and about a six pigs. We did all of our laundry by hand with a cranked wringer and buckets and lived principally off of what we could grow, harvest from the jungle, or milk from the goats and did nearly all of our cooking with self harvested wood, a mix of guava, eucalyptus, and mesquite/locust. In those years I have shoveled literally metric tons of goat manure out of sheds built from recycled building materials, one of which incorporated lumber from the shipping of mirror segments to the Keck telescope. As for microbiome knowledge, I have made a living at times from my skills as a microbiologist. I have designed, built and used laminar flow hoods and sterile glove boxes for the isolation and identification of lambic brewing strains for award winning beer produced by two different local microbreweries, have prepared mushroom spore and tissue cultures in agar and liquid media, have cultured cheese and meat preserving lactic cultures (the dusty white wrapping on many different sausage varieties are examples of these lactic cultures) and to make cultures for lactic fermented pickles and kimchi intended as farmers markets and restaurant products with appropriate safety testing which has included sequencing, PCR and gel electrophoresis techniques. I routinely start sourdough cultures for home use and to share, and yesterday started a live ferment chili salsa that will be ready for probiotic consumption in about a week. I'm away from my home kitchen at the moment, but my kombucha polycultures are at a friends house, and my dry aged lactic cultured wild boar leg quarter is hangin at another friends farm awaiting my return.

I have also produced antifungal and antibacterial fungal metabolic products for veterinary use, and have collected, cultured, and sequenced coliform specimens from near shore runoff for submission to EPA wastewater monitoring as part of federally funded grant programs, having been the program designer and submitting author for those and other awarded STEM and educational grants. So, i am not unfamiliar with the beneficial aspects of microbiotic life forms and their importance to all functioning ecosystems and human life.

My Japanese culture experience includes 32 years ago years at rice farms and seaweed farms, and I am very familiar with the 'dirt' to which the common agriculture worker is exposed to in every day life. However, the differentials that I have personally observed include beef ranches in the US Southwest, Hawaiian beef and sheep ranches, and dairy operations in Japan is that the separation between the conditions in the barn and stockyard are more strenuously partitioned in Japan than elsewhere. It's not that I'm unfamiliar with 'muck', but that I was trying to explain that it is actually common and not very much effort at all for a culture, which has a strong tradition of separating their own dining space from the trough in the barn, to do so.

You are certainly free to convey whatever level of dirt you find reasonable into your own dining space, but please, don't feel that a high acceptance of dirt at mealtimes makes for a greater lifespan through immune system effects. The outdoors will provide all the challenge necessary for proper function without it being present inside the house.

But please, don't feel that I think people who wear outdoor shoes into their own kitchens are parasite ridden or otherwise uncouth, that image nor intent was never in any of my explanations of the how and why for Japanese shoe etiquette. Nor should you infer that I am dirt averse in general, only that I prefer not to have it on my own tatami mats or in my own house. The microbiome of the world is essential, but my personal preference is that dirt as well as cats and the rats they chase should remain outside of my own sleeping quarters.

As for fly droppings, the solution to those is to not allow an accumulation of the growing conditions for maggots to persist in close proximity to ones's indoors spaces, and to otherwise keep the screens on doors and windows closed. No flies will resolve to no fly shit, and a fly swatter plus a dilute peroxide\or\bleach dampened cloth will sanitize the mess for when they wander in from somewhere you cannot control, like the barn or an accidentally uncovered compost pile. Again, fly shit outdoors, no problem. On the walls, tables, and inside windows of my own home, nearly fully preventable and absolutely manageable.

I might type long expositions, but am in no way upset by making the choice to do so. Color me mildly dismayed when people have a hard time understanding that other people in other places do things in different ways, without any real difference in effort or loss of time as experienced by those other people, and upon hearing that those different traditions make a certain kind of logic and have a real benefit to those other people, become defensive as if they were being told 'your doing it wrong.' Not upset in the least, bemused and mildly dismayed in a slight measure.

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#182
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that you seemed incredibly positive that Japan houses o'clean, and the rest of the world is as apes, in caves, picking parasites off of each others backs. This obsession with shoes, doesn't cover the fly droppings, the dirt upon clothing, and the fact that your body is always covered in bacteria, your gut filled with bacteria, your lunch covered in it if you ever eat fresh greens, you will die without ba…

Strange to make such assumptions about my perspectives. I was simply explaining a foreign culture where removing shoes when coming indoors, and In confused that somehow my familiarity with these traditions is somehow indicative of my life experience or familiarity with microbes. Quite strange indeed. Lets clarify these assumptions. In fact I was raised in a ranching and dairy household with over 600 head of beef at t…

The 'filth will make us stronger' approach reminds me of the historical writings of the 10th-century Arab diplomat Ahmad ibn Fadlan, who chronicled the Volga Vikings (Rus') and was the inspiration for the 'Viking morning bowl' scene from the movie The 13th Warrior.

Just 'Ewww'

Isn't it more that you spoke of "not doing it the Japanese way", and then referenced the comparator I've quoted?

Of what am I to infer, if we start at 'dirty shoes', and then evoked is this image?

While you may not be afraid of dirt, and you've provided context now, don't you think it's reasonable to make assessments, when someone connects my statements of "you're still going to track stuff in" and "a clean looking shoe is just as good as a foot", with the above?

So yes, it's reasonable to think one is over-concerned about cleanliness in such a case. And clearly from your response, you did not mean to evoke that impression.

Fine. No worries.

My comments about clothes and fly droppings, is that in rural environments flies abound. They land on you, and therefore deficate and urinate on you, and your clothes. Such is life. There was another poster worried about animal droppings in tree leaves and the grass, evoking concepts of the whole outside world being covered in animal leavings. Whether intentionally evoked or not, this is another source of my bafflement.

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#183
post #180
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't get why you treat this as something super complicated. There is street and nature level dirt which contains an unknowable degree of contamination that can be unambiguously bad for you if you ingest it, no matter what that BBC article says, and the inside areas where people eat and sleep. The vast majority of cultures prefer to maintain that separation and to maintain a considerably higher level of cleanl…

naishoya was fairly damning of all other methods of living, so naturally I'll be quite overt in my response. And almost everyone was a farmer until the last 100+ years. The only way to generate enough food, without machinery, was for all to take part in its creation. People were more used to having hands in dirt. That doesn't mean unclean, but I do find all city dwellers more "fussy" about dirt. They take traditions…

Getting one's hands dirty has little to do with cleanliness inside the home. Do you think the Japanese didn't have to do farmwork?

Contamination is not a modern concept either. Cue to how many religions have quite sharply defined criteria for ritual cleanliness.

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cleanliness is overrated. Sure, it's great for surgery and if you actually have a wound, but your immune system needs pathogens to train on, or it does silly things like attacking your body, or reacting to pollens.

It civilized to live in a clean home instead of a dirty mess. Life is not just about maximizing your survival rate.

What does 'civilized' mean? Usage here seems to be another way to express your own biases. I consider myself civilized, and have a rich and meaningful life, but my house is much less clean than many. I prefer to spend my time and money on things other than being clean and tidy (beyond a basic level of functionality)

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a different time and age, which is why I'll excuse her. Today, I would go full retard even on my own parents if they did that with my children (and rightly so).

What a contemptible phrase to use.

Maybe watch some movies or indulge in some internet phraseology first?

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#186

tangential, but I don't understand why keeping your shoes on in your house is a thing. It's so unsanitary. The bottom of your shoes are in contact with things like the floor of public bathrooms, animal feces (when walking on grass), dirt, mud, etc. And it's so much more comfortable to be in your house barefoot, with socks or with slippers. So much cleaner. I'm disgusted when people try to walk in my house with their…

Cleanliness is overrated. Sure, it's great for surgery and if you actually have a wound, but your immune system needs pathogens to train on, or it does silly things like attacking your body, or reacting to pollens.

Stop washing your hands and showering and see how that goes. I'm not advocating for fab level cleanliness, just a certain level of it.

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a contemptible phrase to use.

Maybe watch some movies or indulge in some internet phraseology first?

For those of us with family members with intellectual disabilities who, when we were young, used that phrase as the phrase of record rather than as an insult... it's just a bummer to see used. Maybe try some empathy

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#188
post #183
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

naishoya was fairly damning of all other methods of living, so naturally I'll be quite overt in my response. And almost everyone was a farmer until the last 100+ years. The only way to generate enough food, without machinery, was for all to take part in its creation. People were more used to having hands in dirt. That doesn't mean unclean, but I do find all city dwellers more "fussy" about dirt. They take traditions…

Getting one's hands dirty has little to do with cleanliness inside the home. Do you think the Japanese didn't have to do farmwork? Contamination is not a modern concept either. Cue to how many religions have quite sharply defined criteria for ritual cleanliness.

Getting one's hands dirty has little to do with cleanliness inside the home. Do you think the Japanese didn't have to do farmwork?

Thank you for agreeing with precisely what I already said.

Contamination is not a modern concept either. Cue to how many religions have quite sharply defined criteria for ritual cleanliness.

I didn't say, elude, or mention that it was. Instead, I said 'city dwellers' are afraid of dirt.

Re: Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge

#189
post #188
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting one's hands dirty has little to do with cleanliness inside the home. Do you think the Japanese didn't have to do farmwork? Contamination is not a modern concept either. Cue to how many religions have quite sharply defined criteria for ritual cleanliness.

Getting one's hands dirty has little to do with cleanliness inside the home. Do you think the Japanese didn't have to do farmwork? Thank you for agreeing with precisely what I already said. Contamination is not a modern concept either. Cue to how many religions have quite sharply defined criteria for ritual cleanliness. I didn't say, elude, or mention that it was. Instead, I said 'city dwellers' are afraid of dirt.

> > Getting one's hands dirty has little to do with cleanliness inside the home. Do you think the Japanese didn't have to do farmwork?

> Thank you for agreeing with precisely what I already said.

Except that the discussion was never about that, but about cleanliness inside the house. You then went off a tangent with that BBC article.

> I didn't say, elude, or mention that it was. Instead, I said 'city dwellers' are afraid of dirt.

And the discussion was also never about people afraid of dirt. That's something you brought up to "muddy the water" and lead the discussion astray.

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