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'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

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Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#51

Post by EA-3167 »

toss1 wrote: post #29
EA-3167 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want symbolic resistance I suggest you look to sources other than multinational corporations for it. Their job is to make money and not stick their foot in any bear traps, our job is to not elect maniacs multiple times. Lets not cross the streams just because it would be convenient this time ... next time it may well not be.

Even "symbolic" resistance is not merely symbolic — it is actually costly and meaningful. A core principle of authoritarianism is to get people, corporations, and institutions to yield to the despot's — comply in advance, retell the despot's lies, applaud the despot's ridiculous new clothes. Anything not doing that provides permission for others to also refuse. The entire principle of authoritarianism is it is too co…

This is what people who want to feel like they're a part of "resistance" tell each other to avoid having to make the smallest sacrifices that might actually matter. The internet is full of boycotts that go nowhere, words that mean nothing, and sentiments that exist only because it's the kind of thing the LCD upvotes.

So please, spare me the idealistic pitch about the power of symbolism, your record of results is appalling and embarrassing. It's a tragic misreading of history based on cherrypicked events that leads people to engage with this kind of mindset in any serious way.

Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#52

Post by FloorEgg »

iAMkenough wrote: post #25
sokoloff wrote: post #19

The executive orders are ridiculous/childish/whatever-you-call-this. That aside, if they have any legal effect, I’d expect a map company to call a feature by its legal name. Should a rendering of the land bordering the Southwest corner of the Black Sea show the city of Istanbul? Or must it remain depicted as Constantinople? Or perhaps even Byzantium?

Technically the border goes through the middle of the lake, and each side has their own legal name. Is it legally one lake with two names, or two lakes with one name? What should customers in neither country see displayed? What if the federal government renames New Mexico to New America, but the state government refuses?

It's incredibly common for different countries that share geographic features to have different names for the same geographic feature.

The English channel / the sleeve (france)

The Baltic sea / East Sea (Germany) / west sea (estonia)

Rivers, mountain ranges, etc.

So for these companies to label a lake different things in different countries is trivial and business as usual.

Likewise geopolitical tensions, renaming, borders moving, etc all have precedent.

So while the actual renaming of this lake is novel from a geopolitical standpoint (Canada and US relations) it isn't novel for Google or Apple to make a change like this.

Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#53

Post by stanski »

k310 wrote: post #2

Google and Apple (soon) make foldable phones. And why not? Their CEO's are foldable as well. "Don't be Evil" Folded. So here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. Here’s to you. Folded

There was a good editorial cartoon recently in the Canadian Globe and Mail paper related to this: https://ibb.co/fdG9PtST

Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#54

Post by stanski »

pedalpete wrote: post #47

As a Canadian, I agree this is ridiculous. Having worked in the mapping sector for a bit, it makes sense. Google/Apple are not deciding what the lake is called. They are pulling data from the GNIS. This way people in a region will see what their government decides is the correct version for their people. Let's take this out of the heated debate. In the most of the world and Iran (strangely we agree on this), we recog…

All well and good until we found out that Google updated the name before GNIS managed to do it. They went out of their way to score points as quickly as possible.

Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#55

Post by toss1 »

EA-3167 wrote: post #51
toss1 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even "symbolic" resistance is not merely symbolic — it is actually costly and meaningful. A core principle of authoritarianism is to get people, corporations, and institutions to yield to the despot's — comply in advance, retell the despot's lies, applaud the despot's ridiculous new clothes. Anything not doing that provides permission for others to also refuse. The entire principle of authoritarianism is it is too co…

This is what people who want to feel like they're a part of "resistance" tell each other to avoid having to make the smallest sacrifices that might actually matter. The internet is full of boycotts that go nowhere, words that mean nothing, and sentiments that exist only because it's the kind of thing the LCD upvotes. So please, spare me the idealistic pitch about the power of symbolism, your record of results is appa…

Stop with the strawman arguments; am not equating internet words and meaningless upvotes with real action.

I am also not even close to claiming such disobedience is sufficient. It is not.

But it is a necessary first step. And failing to take that first step is a notable failure

The very first chapter title in On_Tyranny by historian of 20th-century Europe Timothy Snyder [0] are: "Do Not Comply In Advance"

The entire operation of authoritarianism is to force all the institutions of govt (executive, legislative, & Judicial), and of society (press, industry, academia, sport, religion, groups, etc.) to serve not the independent purposes they serve in a democratic society, but to serve the executive authoritarian.

Forced compliance is the first and most essential tool of authoritarians.

When major institutions or organizations comply, they make it harder for everyone else to not comply. Conversely, non-compliance sets the example for others to not comply. Every non-compliance makes it harder for the authoritarians to implement fascism.

On the other side, note how the current US regime is working so hard to erase actual history of slavery, racism, and atrocities against minorities. They are mere symbolic plaques describing massacres or other history at museums or historic sights — meaningless symbolism, right? NOPE, they are official statements giving permission to think in ways other than the despot wants you to think.

Similarly, had Google and Apple kept the actual historic name of Lake Ontario, which predated both the US and Canada's founding, it would have been both the right thing to do and a real Fck-You to the regime, by organizations with real power. It would have given many others more foundation to disobey. The entire point of this kind of regime action is to force others to obey. Not obeying is not merely symbolic, it is the first step in fighting tyranny.

YES, that alone is not sufficient. But it is a necessary first step. Google and Apple Failed.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Tyranny

Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#56

Post by EA-3167 »

toss1 wrote: post #55
EA-3167 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what people who want to feel like they're a part of "resistance" tell each other to avoid having to make the smallest sacrifices that might actually matter. The internet is full of boycotts that go nowhere, words that mean nothing, and sentiments that exist only because it's the kind of thing the LCD upvotes. So please, spare me the idealistic pitch about the power of symbolism, your record of results is appa…

Stop with the strawman arguments; am not equating internet words and meaningless upvotes with real action. I am also not even close to claiming such disobedience is sufficient. It is not. But it is a necessary first step. And failing to take that first step is a notable failure The very first chapter title in On_Tyranny by historian of 20th-century Europe Timothy Snyder [0] are: "Do Not Comply In Advance" The entire…

Thanks, but I'm not ill-informed, I just disagree with you.

Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#58

Post by GMoromisato »

happytoexplain wrote: post #48
GMoromisato wrote: post #22

I personally would rather have a democratically-elected government--no matter how awful--pick names rather than have corporations pick names. Also, I was curious, so I looked it up: Congress passed a law (Public Law 80-242) in 1947 that allowed the executive branch to establish a single set of geographic names. Conservatives famously protested when the Obama administration renamed Mt. McKinley to Denali. I have no do…

"Picking" is not the same as "declining to acknowledge a change to". You can make your argument perfectly well without pretending otherwise.

I don't get that. If I sometimes decline and sometimes accept, then I'm picking.

Unless you're saying that they should have declined the Denali change, but then does that mean they can never accept a change? Names are locked for eternity?

I think what you want is, "only accept a change when you agree with it." But that's picking.

Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#59

Post by [deleted] »

al_borland wrote: post #17
vkou wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s extremely disruptive, but blaming Google or Apple for any of this is a bad move, imo They have the capacity to push back, instead of pre-emptively rolling over for an autocrat.

Google and Apple don’t name things. If the official name inside the US is Lake America, they are only hurting their users by delaying the change, as the map will no longer be in line with the reality the users are living in and things they need to look up. When it’s only one thing, you might say everyone just knows, but that doesn’t scale. And like I mentioned, they need to pick their battles. I’d rather them save th…

[deleted]

Re: 'Lake America' makes one thing clear: We can't trust U.S. tech companies

#60

Post by vitamark »

While this specific rename looks dumb, the map providers deal with this kind of things all the time. Big georgraphical features like rivers, lakes, seas, mountains and also borders are different from different perspectives (mostly country-based).

From outside of the US, I see "Lake Ontario (Lake America)" in Google Maps, the same way as with the Gulf of Mexico. I see "Persian Gulf (Arabian Gulf)" and "Sea of Japan (East Sea)".

Some names are given from one perspective (like rivers and mountains), like Rio Grande river or Mt Everest.

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