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On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

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Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#691

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

vatsachak wrote: post #366
uncomputation wrote: post #352

So what took an autonomous agentic system using a significantly more powerful internal model, totaling multi-millions of dollars of compute in training and inference, was likely to already be solved by a team of a few humans with an orders of magnitude smaller LLM budget, had OpenAI not been foaming at the mouth to jump the shark and claim “AI solves Millenium Problem.” Also it sounds like the human research effort s…

Totally. Anthropic is like a village cottage shop who was just like chilling until big bad OpenAI came in

anthropic has nothing to do with it

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#692

Post by derangedHorse »

enraged_camel wrote: post #631
tedsanders wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those statements sound true, based on what I've heard. - "very little human" input feels ambiguous, and if someone spends a few days prompting a model to solve a super hairy problem requiring a 100-page proof, I can understand reasonable people interpreting that as both "very little" and "not very little" human input - it's all true that a team worked on this, a bunch of compute was burned, and the problem was…

>> I'm not sure how any of this provides evidence that OpenAI took any of their work. Sorry, but the burden of proof lies in the other direction: OpenAI needs to definitively prove that their agents did not look at the existing work that was about to be published. Otherwise OpenAI simply stole the glory and the spotlight (and I'm being charitable here).

> OpenAI needs to definitively prove that their agents did not look at the existing work that was about to be published.

I don’t think they’re too concerned about appeasing you, enraged_camel.

For most reasonable people, achievement in solving the other Millenium Prize problems at an unprecedented rate will be enough. At some point people will see models are capable of solving hard issues without whatever 0.00001% of the training data coming from irate individuals who believe their sample was the key component of the solution.

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#693

Post by lambda »

tedsanders wrote: post #623
Imnimo wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we did not read any private chats The question I am interested in is not "did we read private chats", but "was this new model trained using any of Tristan and Levent's chats, regardless of whether they were marked private". Can you comment on that?

If they opted out of training, then we definitely did not train on them. If they did not opt out, then I don't personally know if training signals came from their chats, and I don't think we'd be able to tell without their cooperation in identifying them. And even if signals were trained on in some manner, I highly doubt it made a difference to a problem as challenging as the NS proof. Reasons for my doubt: - I know…

But you can say (with the cooperation of the parties involved, of course) if any of the preliminary work that the other researchers did was part of the dataset. It is possible to be more transparent than you are being.

Even better would be more research and tools to help determine the impact of particular training data on models. Right now, proprietary LLM providers get to hide a lot behind "we just train it, we don't know what inputs affect the outputs," and that can be a problem, both because of lack of traceability of factual informaiton as well as lack of traceability of things like this, where the model itself may have had unpublished work in its training set.

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#694

Post by magicalhippo »

spruce_tips wrote: post #550
WarmWash wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone knows that they train on the discounted rate plans data. All the labs are upfront about this too. If you need privacy, then you are going to have to pay full price for those tokens (API). This has been true since day one. Everyone knows it, I guess though this is the first time that it has become "real".

what counts as discounted rate plans? if i pay for a year in advance (and get the yearly discount) and have train on my data set to off.. are you saying that is still being trained on?

It's quite well explained here[1], which is linked from the Privacy section of their plan overview[2].

Basically individual accounts can opt out, while business and enterprise plans as well as API users can opt in.

You'd have to take their word, but that goes for anything in life.

[1]: https://help.openai.com/en/articles/5722486-how-your-data-is...

[2]: https://chatgpt.com/pricing/

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#695

Post by aeve890 »

redox99 wrote: post #597
aeve890 wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If anyone has counterpoints to this I'd love to hear them! Sure. A proof without an unknown amount of human steering (and/or stolen research) would be an unquestionable achievement. To this day there's zero (0) evidence of any result by an LLM alone (maybe I'm wrong). If I just prompt ChatGPT right now with "give me a proof of the Riemann Hypothesis" and this thing delivers, I'm sold. But anything close to "yeah Cha…

The amount of goalpost moving is insane. "Yeah it can solve Millenium problems, but can it do it with nothing more than a one sentence prompt?" Also there are proofs where the only human steering was "keep going".

Parent comment is claiming creativity and genius beyond human experts, so why not ask for a fully unassisted AI novel result? Having access to the entire corpus of human knowledge, what else such amazing entity would require to solve a hard problem by its own?

Any result of such kind from an AI alone would be enough to refute my argument, yet you don't present any.

>Also there are proofs where the only human steering was "keep going".

Which ones?

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#696

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

pfisch wrote: post #46
nehan wrote: post #15

"While unlikely, we cannot rule out that de-identified data derived from their usage of our products helped improve our models." I think they should be able to unravel whether or not any sessions by Tristan or Levent went into the training data for this model.

If they could then it wouldn't be de-identified data...

The researcher could share a string from one of their conversations and OpenAI can confirm whether it exists in their training data.

Or OpenAI could just look at their code and say what it does (maybe have their AI do it if they're having so much trouble with this?)

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#697

Post by danielmarkbruce »

pama wrote: post #183
arctic-true wrote: post #35

Buried under the drama is the fact that OpenAI is claiming that an internal model they’ve been training for less than two weeks is more than twice as capable in mathematics as Astra, which was only made public a week ago. Even if this improvement is limited to mathematics, that is an astounding feat.

Not only that, but it used 10k agents coherently over 88 hours to come up with the proof. This is a significant advance.

If you can create a graph of independent work, which you can with many such problems, agents can work together nicely. Again, thank Lean and the tooling around it.

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#698

Post by enraged_camel »

biophysboy wrote: post #109
floatrock wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenAI's position: > We (the researchers and the agents) did not see any of their work through any means until they released it publicly — in particular, no specific user data was accessed in order to solve this problem. While unlikely, we cannot rule out that de-identified data derived from their usage of our products helped improve our models . However, our proofs differ significantly and even the precise results p…

Why is it unlikely?

Because OpenAI says so, obviously!

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#699

Post by irthomasthomas »

tedsanders wrote: post #41
pavel_lishin wrote: post #8

Is this the one that was allegedly based on someone else's actual work & prompts? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49605915 https://bsky.app/profile/quantian.bsky.social/post/3muyhwbcd... https://cims.nyu.edu/~tristanb/statement.pdf

Yes, that was the allegation last night. I work at OpenAI, though not on the team that did this, and my understanding is: - we decided to ask our model for Millenium problem solutions because of two reasons: (a) our new model was looking incredibly good and (b) we heard rumors that some Millenium problems had been solved and were curious if our models could solve them (the goal here was not to scoop any particular in…

If the goal was not to scoop them, why did openai put a massive team on this, working weekends, only after they heard rumors of the solution?

Re: On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem

#700

Post by Caracas288 »

pred_ wrote: post #151
tedsanders wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that was the allegation last night. I work at OpenAI, though not on the team that did this, and my understanding is: - we decided to ask our model for Millenium problem solutions because of two reasons: (a) our new model was looking incredibly good and (b) we heard rumors that some Millenium problems had been solved and were curious if our models could solve them (the goal here was not to scoop any particular in…

> we did not read any private chats Your post says “While unlikely, we cannot rule out that de-identified data derived from their usage of our products helped improve our models .” We can discuss what it means to “read” things but obviously the issue here isn't whether you did it manually or automatically. But more importantly, what on earth are you doing threatening real scientists to remove their coauthors, then ma…

If the training toggle is switched on, maybe OpenAI doesn't consider a chat to be private? Therefore making this a 'safe' statement.
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