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The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

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Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#91
post #77

There was a lot of hope when the current German government was elected. The current chancellor did his campaign saying the leftist-green ideological politics would be over and he is going to drastically reduce the government spending and cut bureaucracy and lift up the economy. People believed him and majority voted for a center right government. However, as soon as he came to power, he broke the promise of fiscal di…

I'd like to note the highly biased nature of this comment. > There was a lot of hope when the current German government was elected. The current chancellor did his campaign saying the leftist-green ideological politics would be over and he is going to drastically reduce the government spending and cut bureaucracy and lift up the economy. People believed him and majority voted for a center right government. The curren…

> After the coalition fell apart, investigative journalism revealed that they literally planned on entering the government with the intention of blocking as much as possible before blowing up the coalition.

Can you share the link or source for this? This is the first time I’m hearing this

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#92
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CDU has been trying to adopt more AfD positions and talking points, in the hopes of getting their votes. Meanwhile this keeps only strengthening the AfD, but the CDU would rather see the fascists in power than govern with anyone left of center.

> CDU has been trying to adopt more AfD positions > this keeps only strengthening the AfD I am unfamiliar with the details of German politics but if what you say is true, I am not surprised at all. I do not think that one can "win" against those parties by using their methods or adopting their positions. Because they are genuine at it. While the others would only fake it. If the voters have a choice between a fake po…

The research I've seen points to a different, but closely related causal chain - when the mainstream party adopts positions by the extreme party, some view it as a confirmation that the extreme party was right on this point, and might be right on others.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried doing what I suggested? As an addendum to what I said to your sibling commenter: people in developed countries take a lot of shit for granted. Of course there is a judicial system. Of course sewage is properly dealt with. Of course there is a fire department, etc. etc. The whole point of the exercise is realizing what your taxes are actually providing. All that shit ain't free: it costs a lot of money…

" to spend half of your earnings on the collective" Why not 99% then? Or 90%? Or a bargain 85%, leaving you some money for bread and circuses ? It's for the collective good, so how could you complain?

That's a very valid and hard question. You do immediately frame it in a non neutral way, which is unhelpful.

There are good reasons to still have a significant amount of personal freedom in spending earned money: we have an economic system that works faster with it. Citizens can vote with their wallets on matters where collective spending is not necessary, thereby steering development of technology (and society) in a certain direction in a crowdsourced way. Personal spending power is also used as a reward for doing things (although technically this does not have to be in terms of money in a hypothetical future society).

The crowdsourced part is important. Technically a government could buy all the stuff for its citizens, but that is very inefficient for certain things as the knowledge of what is needed is local to the citizens. Additionally in the way we currently structure our governments there is too little room for experimentation: A government that would regularly try multiple different approaches to serve the same market simultaneously would be hammered by its citizens in a democracy for "wasting money", even though that is exactly what a healthy free market would do (bankruptcies and failed projects are a feature of free markets).

Coming back to the question what the percentage should be: it is partially a question of which markets should be publicly funded and which shouldn't. Clearly things like defense, the fire department and the justice system should never be privately funded. I believe health care shouldn't either, btw. The point here is that we have reasonable grounds on which to make the decision, namely what amount of free market capitalism can be allowed in a market without detrimental effects to society (what are essential services and whatnot) or rather which way of funding produces the most desirable results for society.

Determining which market needs what amount of resources is much harder (technically you could spend 99% of GDP on defense), but also part of it. How much investment do these publicly funded markets need? Is that even the right question? There is clearly some minimum to facilitate bare functioning, but what is a reasonable amount/service level? I would say this is a matter of experts making decisions based on a democratic mandate.

The other angle would be to think about what amount of personal spending money is beneficial to society: above what amount do people start spending it mostly on things they don't need and that don't make their lives or technology better? This is tricky, because it is highly intertwined with what services are provided publicly and because it's hard to come up with solid reasoning if there is an upper limit to what more spending does for (technological) progress. There is probably some value in stimulating the caviar and yacht markets, but I'd guess not that much.

All in all, it is tricky. Given all the above it may actually be a lot better if the tax rate was 80% for low earners and 95% for high earners. It may also be better if it was 20% and 35%. I don't think the latter is true, but I can't say with certainty that the former is either.

Again, it is a hard question.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried? Because most people judge these things based on feelings rather than data and actual numbers. Those feelings are almost always a bad heavily skewed representation of reality.

I live in Berlin and have experienced and living it. I have experienced how much I have to pay extra for groceries, utilities, heating and rent. I have seen how the public transportation has degraded even though the ticket prices are increasing. I have experienced how the take home salary has decreased even over the last 3 years. I have experienced how difficult it is just to get an appointment for a doctor even thou…

That was not the question. You have not tried, clearly. This is about gaining insight into what parts of your tax contribution pay for what exactly.

> I am more than happy to pay the taxes and my share for the society, but only if it’s used for the good used and to make my living standards better.

So what's the solution to improving your experience, pay less in taxes or more? Don't add conditions. Remember that this is the subject: "So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc)".

Sidenote, as to your experience: most of that is not due to the German government, but to wars started by Russia and the US/Israel, and indeed other global crises. They have influence over how to act on crises, but they can't (for instance) magically make natural gas/oil appear out of thin air. The easy proof for this is that many, many, many countries with very different governments face those same issues.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to them, the "illegal immigration issue" is just a vehicle to gain power. Nothing more. If what you said made any sense whatsoever, then the parties currently in charge would have stopped it along time ago. Because if according to you that makes the far-right parties grow stronger, then why would anyone in their right mind not do anything about it? Why wait for these parties to use this issue to fuel their growth?

> that makes the far-right parties grow stronger That issue is just one of many that they use and abuse to gain popularity. They have also spread lies about vaccines. They promote antisemitism, xenophobia, hate against the LGBTI people, historical revisionism (e.g. they say nice things about the Nazis), etc. They are even fighting against the wind turbines (or, as Donald Trump calls them, the "wind mills"). You canno…

I've seen the interviews at the AfD rallies.

"They're not afraid to say climate change is fake".

"They're going to kick out the refugees".

"They're going to fix the retirement pensions".

"Back to the good old days".

I'm now reading that the AfD are saying in the press that "democracy demands the other parties work with them". I mean if someone got into power on the promise of taking away the right for women to vote, I guess all the adults in the room have to bow down to 'democracy'.

I personally think the general population is some small percentage of saintly people. And a small percentage of evil people. And a huge mass in the middle. That mass in the middle can be swayed to vote for almost anything.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#96

As a European, I am not worried at all. AfD promises are a complete nonsense which will make everything in Germany worse (Leaving Euro, EU) or require cooperation of other countries (Deportations) so they will either not even try or try and fail. Then after 4-5 years of barking achieve nothing and will get voted out.

You’ve projected the best outcome, but there are worse outcomes than that. They can proclaim it’s a major crisis and suspend elections indefinitely. Wars follow and those frigging suck to put it nicely.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration "People I disagree with should not have a right to speak" I don't know about you, but to me this sounds exactly like the type of fascist rhetoric everyone warns about.

Giving them an opportunity to speak on immigration by handling it so badly. If I don't put out a fire, you can come along and suggest pouring kerosene on it, and if I handle shit badly enough, people might say hey, why not. But if I put the fire out while you're still a toddler, what can you do? Suggest to start a fire and pour kerosene on it? > to me this sounds exactly like the type of fascist rhetoric everyone war…

What is harmless about telling people they shouldn't have a right to speak?

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#98

I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration. Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? I understand that there may be around 5% of people who are genuinely trying to escape dictatorships, but if 95% are just gaming the system, it's going to look very bad.

> Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants?

Suggesting they abandon a core part of their platform is a non-starter. At least in the US, the left isn't silent or neutral on illegal immigration, they are enthusiastically pro illegal immigration. One of the biggest reasons centrists have drifted to supporting the right is realizing the left no longer supports their values.

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#99
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the immigration issue that clearly is forefront on the minds of such AFD voters, Let's be real: this "issue" is a strawman. It doesn't really exist, especially in that part of Germany. Just like pretty much everywhere else, the German anti-immigrant far right is strongest in the areas with the fewest immigrants. This is not to say that the wave of immigration that is now more than 10 years past didn't have its chal…

> Let's be real: this "issue" is a strawman. It doesn't really exist, especially in that part of Germany. Just like pretty much everywhere else, the German anti-immigrant far right is strongest in the areas with the fewest immigrants This is not a strawman. Even if you believe that the AFD is not correct in its diagnosis of the problems, why are you saying something that is a complete lie: https://www.infomigrants.ne…

Nothing in your link is evidence of a problem.

It also doesn't explain the regional correlations. If immigrants are objectively a problem, why is anti-immigration sentiment highest in regions with the least immigration?

Make it make sense...

Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment

#100
post #98

I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration. Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? I understand that there may be around 5% of people who are genuinely trying to escape dictatorships, but if 95% are just gaming the system, it's going to look very bad.

> Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? Suggesting they abandon a core part of their platform is a non-starter. At least in the US, the left isn't silent or neutral on illegal immigration, they are enthusiastically pro illegal immigration. One of the biggest reasons centrists have drifted to supporting the right is realizing the left no longer support…

The people on the left who are "enthusiastically pro illegal immigration" are a tiny minority of all leftists. The majority does think that illegal immigrants shouldn't be mistreated deliberately, which conservative media outlets condense into "enthusiastically pro illegal immigration".
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