I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration. Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? I understand that there may be around 5% of people who are genuinely trying to escape dictatorships, but if 95% are just gaming the system, it's going to look very bad.
> I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration "People I disagree with should not have a right to speak" I don't know about you, but to me this sounds exactly like the type of fascist rhetoric everyone warns about.
The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
71–80 of 109 posts
Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#72Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#73There was a lot of hope when the current German government was elected. The current chancellor did his campaign saying the leftist-green ideological politics would be over and he is going to drastically reduce the government spending and cut bureaucracy and lift up the economy. People believed him and majority voted for a center right government. However, as soon as he came to power, he broke the promise of fiscal di…
I think that was a mistake and they should have form coalition with AfD and let them try to fulfil their promises to their voters. After delivering either little or dead on arrival laws they would be effectively self-defused.
Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is the AfD a party in favor of liberal democracy? Enlighten us about where you'd palce their ideas in the political spectrum.
I wasn't specifically speaking of Afd, but overall general direction of the term used by media. How many people who are moderate and haven't changed their views on things moved from moderate to being labeled as far right. Anyway this topic shouldn't even be on HN. The story will likely be flagged soon.
We are building a literal surveillance state tech dystopia funded by the sorts of VCs that employ a lot of the people in this site and you think that news about who will have control over this and what they plan to do with it is off-topic?
Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#75I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration. Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? I understand that there may be around 5% of people who are genuinely trying to escape dictatorships, but if 95% are just gaming the system, it's going to look very bad.
> Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? Illegal immigrants are a source of cheap labor. Business interests tell politicians that without a pool of cheap workers, costs will go up, voters will feel inflation, and the politicians will get the blame. The overall cost is not low. Some illegal immigrants get benefits. Some illegal immigrants commit crimes.…
> But those costs are not seen by the businesses that push illegal immigration.
Do you have a source about the cost? As of 2023, noncitizen immigrants generally and illegal immigrants specifically were a net positive to fiscal burden [1]:
> Illegal noncitizens were only somewhat less fiscally positive per capita than noncitizens generally, and they likely reduced the deficit by at least $1.7 trillion from 1994 to 2023. Illegal immigrants of all educational attainments are also likely to have paid more in taxes than they received in government benefits. Although we adopt simple assumptions, it is difficult to arrive at a conclusion significantly different from the one below. Even if illegal immigrants used benefits at the exact same rate as all noncitizens, they would still be, on average, fiscally beneficial to the United States—both by reducing the debt in real terms and by lowering debt-to-GDP.
> Almost all illegal immigrants will use the healthcare system eventually.
If by almost all you mean that most illegal immigrants get pathways to permanent residence/citizenship (unclear to me whether that's true), it's not very relevant unless you propose that after becoming legal residents illegal immigrants burden the economy/budget more than always-legal residents do. Otherwise, I would wonder whether the national birth rate issue [2] is as urgent as I've heard.
[1] https://www.cato.org/white-paper/immigrants-recent-effects-g...
[2] https://phys.org/news/2026-06-birth-declining-world.html
Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#76I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration. Is it really that hard to allow only legal immigration and stop giving incentives to illegal immigrants? I understand that there may be around 5% of people who are genuinely trying to escape dictatorships, but if 95% are just gaming the system, it's going to look very bad.
> I don't understand why we even give the right an opportunity to speak on immigration "People I disagree with should not have a right to speak" I don't know about you, but to me this sounds exactly like the type of fascist rhetoric everyone warns about.
Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#77There was a lot of hope when the current German government was elected. The current chancellor did his campaign saying the leftist-green ideological politics would be over and he is going to drastically reduce the government spending and cut bureaucracy and lift up the economy. People believed him and majority voted for a center right government. However, as soon as he came to power, he broke the promise of fiscal di…
> There was a lot of hope when the current German government was elected. The current chancellor did his campaign saying the leftist-green ideological politics would be over and he is going to drastically reduce the government spending and cut bureaucracy and lift up the economy. People believed him and majority voted for a center right government.
The current chancellor is from the CDU, the same party that led the government 16 out of the last 20 years (and the majority of Germany's existence), and they offered nothing but populist non-solutions. Now they're implementing them, and it turns out they're just pushing Germany deeper into the hole the CDU dug for us.
> However, as soon as he came to power, he broke the promise of fiscal discipline and cutting spending and the first thing he did was passed a bill to burrow more than half a trillion Euros under the votes of old parliament even changing the constitution.
This is a non-argument, since it's just pointing at a Euro amount without arguing why it's not fiscally responsible or how it doesn't align with their campaign promises. I actually agree that it's fiscally irresponsible, but it definitely aligns with Merz's campaign promises. When you vote for a party that promises both fiscal responsibility AND to funnel lots of money to the rich, you're gonna break one of them no matter what - but that's on the voters for believing in both.
> Also because of the firewall they have imposed to AfD, for him the only coalition partner was SPD( which is more of a left leaning party) and they formed a government and since then it has been internal conflicts to pass the important legislations to get the country back on track.
For the record, the SPD lost >80% of their voters because they have been the CDU's little lapdog for more than a decade, and are actively pushing against non-centrist policies. The "important legislations to get the country back on track" are things like "allowing employers to demand 8 additional hours of work each week" or "allowing employers to force employees to get a sick note on the first day AND no longer paying for single sick days, WHILE ALSO banning sick notes over video appointments AND no longer reimbursing physicians for 'open hours', so if you can't get that sick note, sucks to be you".
In comparison, the party FDP (who literally let the richest capitalists directly participate in their decisions) actually blocked a bunch of agreed-upon things in the only recent left-of-center government. After the coalition fell apart, investigative journalism revealed that they literally planned on entering the government with the intention of blocking as much as possible before blowing up the coalition.
Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
This kind of non-answer is exactly what leads to far-right parties getting more followers. Tax paying citizens who want their concerns addressed absolutely LOVE hearing that "Ackchyually, your problem doesn't exist and is all in your head". P.S. - I have no skin in the game regarding EU immigration policies, just making an honest observation about engaging with people who might have opposing views.
That's fair, but context is everything :) I approached it as a discussion on Hacker News, and I think my implicit assumption (which can be challenged!) is that taking a structured, logical approach benefits us all. When I saw what I perceive as a logical fallacy or assumption that takes us on an unproductive path, intended or not, I called it out. In other venues, different approach may be more applicable. To your ot…
Im in Denmark and we have tried throwing money and ressources at the issue for 50 years, integration effort after integration effort, and for us the issue isnt money or jobs, we are a rich country with very little unemployment, the issue is gangs, violence, rape, where immigrants are far ahead of anyone..
Just yesterday a new article broke from one of the largest most respected newspapers.. we now face child immigrant gangs of 11-18 year olds, that commit violence. Paywaled link: https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-inv...
Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc) Dreadful framing. You work for the benefit of the entirety of Germany including yourself half the time . Instead of viewing it as money you've lost, do this: look at the fractions of what the German (federal, municipal, etc) government spends its budget on, then apply these to what you pay yearly in taxes. Then compare that to the other things…
That would have worked if the things were getting better and living standards are being elevated. Right now it’s more like your tax is being used in wasteful spending, funding wars and corruption that doesn’t improve the quality of life at all
Re: The far right's win in Germany is sending a chill through Europe's establishment
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc) Dreadful framing. You work for the benefit of the entirety of Germany including yourself half the time . Instead of viewing it as money you've lost, do this: look at the fractions of what the German (federal, municipal, etc) government spends its budget on, then apply these to what you pay yearly in taxes. Then compare that to the other things…
Your framing is no better: Don't look at how much you are paying in taxes because somehow in the end you are getting more out of it. Of course you should look at what you are getting out of it and scrutinize every euro spent by the state. This is the basis of the social contract between a country and its citizens. Citizens pay money in the form of taxes and expect to receive decent services in return. If the state is…
Of course there is a judicial system.
Of course sewage is properly dealt with.
Of course there is a fire department, etc. etc.
The whole point of the exercise is realizing what your taxes are actually providing. All that shit ain't free: it costs a lot of money and a lot of constant work from a lot of people who don't do it for the fame or fortune, yet publicly mostly just get shit on and called "lazy".
Don't get me wrong: Government isn't perfect and a lot can be and should be improved, but the framing that it is somehow scandalous or immoral to have to spend half of your earnings on the collective (mostly) good, or even to call that theft (as so many do) is entitled, spoiled and ignorant of history.
Edit: as to the prosperity of Germany, on a global scale and compared to other points in history it is actually doing fucking fantastic. It's citizens lead lives that are easily top 1% of any lives that have ever been and easily top 5% of lives currently on this planet.