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PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

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Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#121

Post by Daishiman »

somenameforme wrote: post #76

IQ scores in most of the Western world began reversing sometime from the 90s to early 00s. [1] That link is for the US but similar stuff has also been observed in most of every Western/OECD nation. By contrast they're still rapidly increasing in the 'Global South'. You'd expect this to manifest in reduced test scores and reduced quality of outcomes across a breadth of fields over time paired with the inverse happenin…

> Why this is, is an interesting question but it hits on too many taboo topics. Though perhaps rational discussion becoming taboo is itself a part of the reason.

I'm sure you fail to see the contradiction in claiming that "rational discussion" is a taboo while clearly not stating your hypothesis.

In the same vein, your hypothesis obviates the fact that "rational discussion" in topics of interpreting social studies requires building out on a ton of assumptions that are weakly held and the reason why the social scientists abstain from giving clear-cut answers is because the topic has too much depth and nuance to make strong statements with confidence.

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#122

Post by watwut »

somenameforme wrote: post #76

IQ scores in most of the Western world began reversing sometime from the 90s to early 00s. [1] That link is for the US but similar stuff has also been observed in most of every Western/OECD nation. By contrast they're still rapidly increasing in the 'Global South'. You'd expect this to manifest in reduced test scores and reduced quality of outcomes across a breadth of fields over time paired with the inverse happenin…

IQ is literally designed to always average at 100. And tests are calibrated to always give that result.

So, not so much taboo as "a bullshit".

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#123

Post by Daishiman »

Huarache1 wrote: post #85
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can torture your children with ever harsher "education" Harsh educations don’t work. Neither does modern coddling, prevalent in the West. If any adversity prompts a mental health crisis, you’re at a global disadvantage. Economically and, I’d argue, in terms of quality of life.

The issue is that Mental Health is genuinely a fleeting, seemingly slowly renewable resource brought down by either screens, stress, or something else. I believe that openly talking about it, while a great way to de-stigmatize it, may have inadvertently caused self-diagnoses and worsening symptoms to increase. There is also something else to be said about Mental Health, coming from one of the countries with the lowes…

> Peru probably isn't the best place to live, but the food, weather, people, and general culture which almost normalizes suffering in an almost Buddhist way (Sufre Peruano sufre! lit. Suffer Peruvian, Suffer!) might have something to do with a more robust mental health situation?

Handling a mental health crisis or living through hardship in a stoic manner means nothing about your overall performance. People in the past used to take year-long sabbaticals due to sicknesses of all sorts which can definitely be classified as PTSD today. People handled hardship through alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and a level of physical violence that nobody who's experienced it would like it to return.

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#124

Post by adrianN »

tptacek wrote: post #120
DataDaoDe wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IQ scores in most of the Western world began reversing sometime from the 90s to early 00s. [1] That link is for the US but similar stuff has also been observed in most of every Western/OECD nation. I wonder to what extent demographic shifts account for the observed reversal? It would be interesting to tease out what happens where composition remains constant, i.e. Poland. Though I doubt this explains the entire eff…

In what manner are you suggesting demography would be at issue here?

Intelligence is probably at least partially inheritable. If intelligent people have fewer children you expect intelligence to go down eventually.

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#125

Post by tptacek »

adrianN wrote: post #124
tptacek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what manner are you suggesting demography would be at issue here?

Intelligence is probably at least partially inheritable. If intelligent people have fewer children you expect intelligence to go down eventually.

Just because smart people tend to have fewer children (because, for instance, they delay it due to schooling and career demands) doesn't mean genes for intelligence are necessarily being selected against.

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#126

Post by lukeify »

Aerroon wrote: post #111
aennassiri wrote: post #101

This is alarming. I believe it is probably a combination of several factors: - Social media and doomscrolling without sufficient parental controls: Several OECD countries are already addressing this by introducing or considering restrictions on teenagers’ access to social media. - App UX/UI: Many apps are designed to compete for our attention, which can gradually reduce our ability to sustain focus. - LLMs: The impac…

> - Social media and doomscrolling without sufficient parental controls: Several OECD countries are already addressing this by introducing or considering restrictions on teenagers’ access to social media. Surely this time banning things will improve test scores! Even before you get to the scores in the report, it shows what percentage of students come from schools that have banned phones. There doesn't seem to be any…

Score results aren’t alone sufficient proof about whether a ban on phones in school is successful or not.

Phones also enable classroom distractions, waste teachers time, and enable antisocial behaviours kids like the engage such as bullying.

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#127

Post by rtkwe »

R_D_Olivaw wrote: post #108
rtkwe wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest speedbump to that is teacher time. Grading and returning worksheets for students is a huge unpaid time sink for teachers.

As you say, like most of any of our current issues, it's not the act of doing something that is the issue, it's the lack of remuneration for doing that thing. Any region would gain an immense amount of more "smart point metrics" (what I choose to refer these scores as) if students had their own personal tutors that helped them along. But that doesn't fit our "profit or perish" economic models.

It's not just compensation grading is a very time intensive process so even if it were paid it eats up either personal time or time they could use preparing lessons or assisting students.

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#128

Post by justacrow »

blululu wrote: post #35

Framing this as a pattern across the entire industrial world is a bit misleading. Looking through the data at Math Scores since 2015 shows big country level split: Japan: -3 S Korea: -1 Singapore: +1 Taiwan: +9 --- Germany: -45 France: -38 Sweden: -33 US: -10 This is an issue with the western industrialized world. Which ought to make the analysis simple since we can look at what those countries have done differently…

While the examples above just draws trolls pushing an immigration angle, consider these other countries:

Finland -45

Bulgaria -38

Malaysia -62

Israel -33

Serbia -44

Indonesia: -24

Full data is on Table 2.9, page 101 in the report: https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/pisa-2025-results-volum...

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#129

Post by HSO »

Tade0 wrote: post #106
HSO wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but only via walkover. what that means?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkover In sports it's victory because the opponents didn't show up or were disqualified.

thanks

Re: PISA 2025 Students' reading and mathematics performance declined across the OECD

#130

Post by ASalazarMX »

Daishiman wrote: post #123
Huarache1 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that Mental Health is genuinely a fleeting, seemingly slowly renewable resource brought down by either screens, stress, or something else. I believe that openly talking about it, while a great way to de-stigmatize it, may have inadvertently caused self-diagnoses and worsening symptoms to increase. There is also something else to be said about Mental Health, coming from one of the countries with the lowes…

> Peru probably isn't the best place to live, but the food, weather, people, and general culture which almost normalizes suffering in an almost Buddhist way (Sufre Peruano sufre! lit. Suffer Peruvian, Suffer!) might have something to do with a more robust mental health situation? Handling a mental health crisis or living through hardship in a stoic manner means nothing about your overall performance. People in the pa…

I see it as the kid that falls and gets up because kids are made of rubber, but if the parents are watching and become alarmed, it gets scared, cries, gets cuddled, and adopts the pattern. Resiliency is not about being stoic and bottling emotions, it's about not framing small setbacks as tragedies.

In these times, the parents might even be aware of the consequences of what they're doing, but can't give the impression to neighbors and authorities that they neglect their kids.

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