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216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

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Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#961

Post by MetaWhirledPeas »

Terr_ wrote: post #879
Terr_ wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law has been unable to keep up with tech changes. Nah, for the most part the law has been unable to keep up with (or choose to oppose) corporate power , and new ways it's being used. Usually there's no magic quantum doohickey which demands fundamentally new legal theory.

For example, take this TV spyware thing, and rewind to the year 1986, and imagine RCA started selling televisions with microphones in them that recorded what was in your room and radioed it back to headquarters for some reason. Obviously the costs wouldn't have worked at the time, but is there anything that was missing in our ability to describe the risks and wrongness? The concepts of privacy and consent, contracts…

> imagine RCA started selling televisions with microphones in them that recorded what was in your room and radioed it back to headquarters for some reason

The problem is that there are real use cases (whether you want them yourself or not) for having an always-on microphone that phones home. The discussion for regulators and lawmakers then becomes about how the data is handled, and that is where they get left in the dust.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#962

Post by hvb2 »

Gigachad wrote: post #733
hvb2 wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have an (ever growing) list of forbidden clauses that even when written and signed by consumer are null and void I'm pretty sure that's true almost everywhere. Law beats contract. The real question is how strong the laws are. In the US not so much because of small government and stuff, especially in red states.

The US is not small government at all. It’s one of the largest governments in the world. It just exists almost exclusively to serve billionaires. It’s “small government” when it comes to protecting your individual rights, and full flock powered ai surveillance state when someone has an abortion.

I obviously didn't invent that term. And in large part you're right that it means deregulation so companies can do whatever

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#963

Post by godelski »

daemin wrote: post #897
godelski wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be making the assumption that this is all a zero sum game. I have to point out the irony that this is a technology based site, focused on software. You know, a sector that isn't nearly as tied to physical resources as other sectors. It's the whole reason our industry exploded, because you can make software and ship it an infinite number of times, allowing you to scale like no other sector can. But my poin…

But once you've innovated that first bit, you're in a mature industry, do you do the hard thing and innovate again or do you just stay there slowly becoming irrelevant, or do you optimise what you have and figure out more income sources from the same innovation for even more money? Take a look at any mature software product, do they try to innovate more, or do they figure out how to put more advertisements into it?

The answer isn't an "or" it is an "and".

But in a {mono,oligo}polistic setting companies typically get lazy.

  > Take a look at any mature software product
For most companies that have cornered the market, the latter. But it seems you're implying that if they haven't cornered the market then they aren't mature.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#964

Post by godelski »

gf000 wrote: post #875
godelski wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norman Doors. Good design communicates even without language. It is reasonable to see a toggle switch and think it... you know... toggles. The same reason you see a handle on a door a pill before you read the sign that says push. The sign is literally there because the physical design is telling you something different. It is literally mixed signals. Apple could have done many different things to make the design clea…

Could you sketch a spring-loaded button? I just have a hard time imagining how could this time dimension be added properly to a button - not that I would disagree with you in general. Also, is this really different from a button that reflects state? E.g. you have a battery saver button that automatically turns on at <20%, is that fundamentally different than a button that resets to a given value at 0:00? I genuinely…

For the sideways toggle switches, the usual single line.

For the buttons when you pull down the menu, literally any physical change would help, not just color and a message. Highlight the circular edge and make it work like a count down. Make it a polygon instead of a circle. Rotate the symbol in that count down. There's a million ways to do it differently

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#965

Post by ButlerianJihad »

godelski wrote: post #874
bayindirh wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple's Wifi and Bluetooth one-touch toggle off for now buttons? This comparison rubs me off the wrong way every time I see, because. 1. The notifications clearly tell the behavior (doing $THING until tomorrow). 2. There's a way to turn them "really off". What LG does is completely different. IIRC from the teaser of this video, the microphone is never "completely" off or apps can re-enable them somehow.

Norman Doors. Good design communicates even without language. It is reasonable to see a toggle switch and think it... you know... toggles. The same reason you see a handle on a door a pill before you read the sign that says push. The sign is literally there because the physical design is telling you something different. It is literally mixed signals. Apple could have done many different things to make the design clea…

https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Spacecraft#Haggunenon_Ad...

  Marvin was able to touch the surface of the ship and open up an entry hatchway, and the interior of the ship was completely black. There were black controls labelled in black, on a black background, with a little light that lit up black, which made it difficult to control the ship. The ceiling and walls of the swaying cabin were also black, as well as the seats, control panel, the instruments and the little screws that held them in place. The thin tufted nylon floor covering was black, and when a corner of the foam underlay was lifted up that was also discovered to be was black.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#966

Post by gchamonlive »

ChoGGi wrote: post #954
phkahler wrote: post #832

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask LG who has agreed to their wiretapping. They can't tell you if some guest in front of a TV has agreed or not. How can that be concent?

> concent I've been wondering; do you like to sing together with the LG chime sound?

Just bear in mind people from all over the world post here, and consent is an easy word to get wrong.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#967

Post by godelski »

bayindirh wrote: post #906
godelski wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norman Doors. Good design communicates even without language. It is reasonable to see a toggle switch and think it... you know... toggles. The same reason you see a handle on a door a pill before you read the sign that says push. The sign is literally there because the physical design is telling you something different. It is literally mixed signals. Apple could have done many different things to make the design clea…

> Good design communicates even without language. It is reasonable to see a toggle switch and think it... you know... toggles. Yes, good design needs no language. However, it's not reasonable to see a toggle and think it's a permanent toggle. Esp, when it's a button. There are many buttons in the world which doesn't toggle. In iOS, a toggle is also different from a button. > Apple could have done many different thing…

  > In iOS, a toggle is also different from a button.
Yet they're all circles

  > They added clear messaging
And it's common to put pull/push signs on doors. That doesn't fix design.

  > Sorry to disagree, but this is not true:
If that was enough we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's not a few people being annoyed/confused either. I'd wager if you asked professional designers outside Apple that they'd agree that they don't communicate well.

They're inconsistent:

  - Radio buttons are blue when on but white when temporary disabled
    - all other buttons are white while enabled
    - cellular is green when enabled
    - battery saver is yellow when enabled
    - airplane mode is orange when enabled
    - the icon is red for rotate lock and silent
  - white background means both enabled and temporary disabled 
    - on most of the radio buttons they're blue when enabled and white when temporary, no off 
    - on others (vpn, rotate, silent, battery, etc) white background while enabled
  - personal hotspot, satellite, silent, and automotive cues have a cross out when disabled 
    - nothing else does
      - that includes radio things like VPN and airplane
Do I really need to continue? I trust you can find more on your own.

I also want to remind you that some people are colorblind.

Additionally that there are shapes other than circles and ellipses

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#968

Post by tjoff »

phkahler wrote: post #831
Animats wrote: post #572

Here are LG's contract terms for appliances.[1] They are awful. Not only can they listen in. You have a contractual requirement to tell everyone in range of an appliance that they may be eavesdropped upon. CONSENT REQUIREMENT: You acknowledge and agree that it is your sole responsibility to obtain all necessary consents from any third parties whose voices may be captured by the Product and to notify household members…

IANAL but without concent I think LG is comitting a crime here. The owner who ostensibly agreed to obtain concent through the ToS might be breaking their agreement, but wouldn't that be a separate issue? ToS and other click licenses have been making shit up for way too long.

If I'm a passenger in a tesla, does the owner and/or tesla break a law when neither informs me that I'm being spied on?

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#969

Post by cogman10 »

mapt wrote: post #946
gchamonlive wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's absurd is that this doesn't void the terms by default. There should be limits to what companies can put in their ToS beyond which those terms aren't enforceable.

There are reasonableness limits inherent in contract law, under "Consideration".

Unfortunately, no. Common law requires famously very little consideration for a contract to be valid [1]. I can sign a contract where I give $100 and am given a penny back and that'd be valid consideration.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppercorn_(law)

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#970

Post by throwaway219450 »

cameldrv wrote: post #860
stronglikedan wrote: post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they already have audio video surveillance signs posted everywhere from the moment you walk in so that would go over like a lead balloon

They have video surveillance signs. Audio is a different category in a lot of states. In California, it's illegal to record audio without consent of all of the parties, and I believe you can get a civil remedy of $5000 for this.

IANAL. In states with multi or all-party consent, there is usually some wording like "reasonable expectation" of privacy, which you don't have in public by default. The store could argue you have no expectation of privacy there, so they can record audio. There might be other legal codes, but I think this is how smart doorbell manufacturers are allowed to operate in those states.

> (c) For the purposes of this section, “confidential communication” means any communication carried on in circumstances as may reasonably indicate that any party to the communication desires it to be confined to the parties thereto, but excludes a communication made in a public gathering or in any legislative, judicial, executive, or administrative proceeding open to the public, or in any other circumstance in which the parties to the communication may reasonably expect that the communication may be overheard or recorded.

Penal Code § 632(c)

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