Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

961–970 of 1001 posts

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#961

Post by godelski »

bayindirh wrote: post #904
godelski wrote: post #872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norman Doors. Good design communicates even without language. It is reasonable to see a toggle switch and think it... you know... toggles. The same reason you see a handle on a door a pill before you read the sign that says push. The sign is literally there because the physical design is telling you something different. It is literally mixed signals. Apple could have done many different things to make the design clea…

> Good design communicates even without language. It is reasonable to see a toggle switch and think it... you know... toggles. Yes, good design needs no language. However, it's not reasonable to see a toggle and think it's a permanent toggle. Esp, when it's a button. There are many buttons in the world which doesn't toggle. In iOS, a toggle is also different from a button. > Apple could have done many different thing…

  > In iOS, a toggle is also different from a button.
Yet they're all circles

  > They added clear messaging
And it's common to put pull/push signs on doors. That doesn't fix design.

  > Sorry to disagree, but this is not true:
If that was enough we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's not a few people being annoyed/confused either. I'd wager if you asked professional designers outside Apple that they'd agree that they don't communicate well.

They're inconsistent:

  - Radio buttons are blue when on but white when temporary disabled
    - all other buttons are white while enabled
    - cellular is green when enabled
    - battery saver is yellow when enabled
    - airplane mode is orange when enabled
    - the icon is red for rotate lock and silent
  - white background means both enabled and temporary disabled 
    - on most of the radio buttons they're blue when enabled and white when temporary, no off 
    - on others (vpn, rotate, silent, battery, etc) white background while enabled
  - personal hotspot, satellite, silent, and automotive cues have a cross out when disabled 
    - nothing else does
      - that includes radio things like VPN and airplane
Do I really need to continue? I trust you can find more on your own.

I also want to remind you that some people are colorblind.

Additionally that there are shapes other than circles and ellipses

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#962

Post by tjoff »

phkahler wrote: post #830
Animats wrote: post #571

Here are LG's contract terms for appliances.[1] They are awful. Not only can they listen in. You have a contractual requirement to tell everyone in range of an appliance that they may be eavesdropped upon. CONSENT REQUIREMENT: You acknowledge and agree that it is your sole responsibility to obtain all necessary consents from any third parties whose voices may be captured by the Product and to notify household members…

IANAL but without concent I think LG is comitting a crime here. The owner who ostensibly agreed to obtain concent through the ToS might be breaking their agreement, but wouldn't that be a separate issue? ToS and other click licenses have been making shit up for way too long.

If I'm a passenger in a tesla, does the owner and/or tesla break a law when neither informs me that I'm being spied on?

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#963

Post by cogman10 »

mapt wrote: post #941
gchamonlive wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's absurd is that this doesn't void the terms by default. There should be limits to what companies can put in their ToS beyond which those terms aren't enforceable.

There are reasonableness limits inherent in contract law, under "Consideration".

Unfortunately, no. Common law requires famously very little consideration for a contract to be valid [1]. I can sign a contract where I give $100 and am given a penny back and that'd be valid consideration.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppercorn_(law)

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#964

Post by throwaway219450 »

cameldrv wrote: post #859
stronglikedan wrote: post #826

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they already have audio video surveillance signs posted everywhere from the moment you walk in so that would go over like a lead balloon

They have video surveillance signs. Audio is a different category in a lot of states. In California, it's illegal to record audio without consent of all of the parties, and I believe you can get a civil remedy of $5000 for this.

IANAL. In states with multi or all-party consent, there is usually some wording like "reasonable expectation" of privacy, which you don't have in public by default. The store could argue you have no expectation of privacy there, so they can record audio. There might be other legal codes, but I think this is how smart doorbell manufacturers are allowed to operate in those states.

> (c) For the purposes of this section, “confidential communication” means any communication carried on in circumstances as may reasonably indicate that any party to the communication desires it to be confined to the parties thereto, but excludes a communication made in a public gathering or in any legislative, judicial, executive, or administrative proceeding open to the public, or in any other circumstance in which the parties to the communication may reasonably expect that the communication may be overheard or recorded.

Penal Code § 632(c)

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#965

Post by beart »

bbor wrote: post #818
adithyassekhar wrote: post #791

> They also found where the microphone was software disabled via settings, it was STILL recording things but had the dB level so low that it looked like nothing but when amplified to +50dB later the conversations were actually still there.

Can someone confirm this part of it? I'm highly, highly dubious that these TVs are sending back random ambient conversation -- for one thing, it would be a truly monstrously-huge stream of data, no? I certainly believe that it sends back data when you use voice commands, ofc (both for advertising and product improvement). But this would be the first real case of something that's been a 100% false conspiracy theory fo…

I assumed from watching the video, the device is processing the audio locally and transmitting the results - text rather than audio.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#967

Post by Obscurity4340 »

godelski wrote: post #872
bayindirh wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple's Wifi and Bluetooth one-touch toggle off for now buttons? This comparison rubs me off the wrong way every time I see, because. 1. The notifications clearly tell the behavior (doing $THING until tomorrow). 2. There's a way to turn them "really off". What LG does is completely different. IIRC from the teaser of this video, the microphone is never "completely" off or apps can re-enable them somehow.

Norman Doors. Good design communicates even without language. It is reasonable to see a toggle switch and think it... you know... toggles. The same reason you see a handle on a door a pill before you read the sign that says push. The sign is literally there because the physical design is telling you something different. It is literally mixed signals. Apple could have done many different things to make the design clea…

Notice the bluetooth toggle only says it disconnects bluetooth devices until tomorrow. It doesnt turn off bluetooth because there is a profit incentive to keep all devices meshing for use in FindMy and AirTags and all that.

Same with WiFi. It doesnt even turn WiFi off, it just "disconnects" but keeps WiFi searching and whatever else. Why not have the option to make the toggle actually do the same thing as having to go all the way to Settings to do when the intention is clear and obvious?

Why does it take 2 presses and going a level deep to turn off something when the easy toggle makes it so smooth and easy to turn on which is conveniently the behavior they want

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#968

Post by avodonosov »

BoingBoomTschak wrote: post #39
avodonosov wrote: post #14

Telescreens. Can anyone recommend a non-spying TV brand or a model? (Modern)

I've been searching for one hour, and the only truly safe thing is an HTPC linked to an OS-free commercial display like these large VAs from ViewSonic: https://www.viewsonic.com/global/products/commercial-display... (goes from 45" to 100").

What software would you install on the HTPC?

User will typically want to have a remote control and have applications like youtube.

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#969

Post by avodonosov »

adrian_b wrote: post #30
avodonosov wrote: post #14

Telescreens. Can anyone recommend a non-spying TV brand or a model? (Modern)

I have stopped using TV sets more than a decade ago. Instead of a TV set, I use a very big monitor, which is connected to a mini-PC (an old Intel NUC with Linux), which also has a TV tuner and an infrared remote control receiver. Besides just showing a TV channel, a mini-PC can also record it and it can play any other kind of movie or music files, or it can stream some video from the Internet.

Can you watch youtoube in that setup? If that's Linux, what desktop environment do you use? How does infrared remote control works, like mouse - point and click? Of you can select applications with Up, Down, Left, Right buttons on the remote, like on usual TVs?

Re: 216M Spy TVs – The LG Smart TV Problem [video]

#970

Post by Obscurity4340 »

bayindirh wrote: post #691
Obscurity4340 wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you actually even turn and keep the microphone off or does it toggle itself back on like Apple's Wifi and Bluetooth one-touch toggle off for now buttons?

> Apple's Wifi and Bluetooth one-touch toggle off for now buttons? This comparison rubs me off the wrong way every time I see, because. 1. The notifications clearly tell the behavior (doing $THING until tomorrow). 2. There's a way to turn them "really off". What LG does is completely different. IIRC from the teaser of this video, the microphone is never "completely" off or apps can re-enable them somehow.

The user expects it to turn off bluetooth or turn off wifi, the backwards way is saying the user presses the toggle and the disclaimer sets not only their expectation but in what I think you're saying, the "reasonable" or logical expectation, which thats not how it works, and its not even logical.

There is a toggle showing the Wifi symbol and the bluetooth symbol, you toggle it means you want to turn it on or off, it doesnt show wifi connections glyph or bluetooth connections glyph, it shows the symbolic representation of that underlying larger function/mode of your phone. You expect when you turn it off it disconnects and stops trying to send that particular signal since you made a concrete choice (you thought) to turn it off. Same with Low Energy mode, if I toggle that it means I want it on until I toggle it off, not when battery is 80% or when phone is turned off and on again. You expect state persistance until you change it.

Its like saying when you try to unsubscribe from a service, ok you've disconnected from your subscription (but in fine print) it will be back next month or some other arbitrary merchant prescribed date. No, it will be back when I say I want it back and make the necessary active effort to reestablish or change that.

I want you to try this experiment:

1. Toggle WiFi and BlueTooth from your command centre thing 2. Go to > Settings 3. What information is shown for Wifi and for Blutooth?

It will likely say something "No connection". Phew, I guess it worked. Alright, lets call it a day.

But wait?

4. Tap each one and voila, both should show the green On toggle status. You have not turned off Wifi or Bluetooth, it has merely "disconnected" them, depending on your Wifi settings it will likely try to autojoin your known hotspot and they're back in business likely well before the automatic "tomorrow reconnect" comes that the toggle ostensibly sets in motion

Its not technically lying but the expectation when you turn off a toggle is it turns off that which you physically and intended to toggle. This abdicates that reasonable expectation and twists it ridiculously.

Its bad enough that theres no easy optionto actually turn it off short of automating it, its just sneaky and a clear conflict of interest

Same deal with Low Battery Mode or whatever, it always tries to get you off it, back to the Green battery icon at the top bar of your screen. Battery is 80% charged, thats enough for you, back to waste energy doing more of the stuff thats good for us and bad for your battery, Mac at least has always but its always trying to assert what is sufficent or enough for you even when there is a clear preference of the user, if it mattered to them that they were aligning with your preference and not working against you they could easily evaluate that but thats contrary to their interest

Post reply on HN