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American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

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Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#81
post #56

I'm so sick of hearing about how bad we--us poor, lost kids from Generation Y--have it. I'm so sick of hearing about the odds, about the unemployment rate, about how everything's our fault because we're too entitled, or about how nothing's our fault because the economy you see. I live in a rented house with several other young folks trying to get by in our industry. I'm working today instead of taking a bus home to s…

An exercise in trading anecdotes isn't going to get anyone anywhere. The fact that the people you've surrounded yourself are relatively well off does not offset problems surrounding unemployment and falling wages.

Yes this is trading an anecdote. It is also sharing his own experience and perspective. And his hopes and dreams.

Which differ from the journalist's take. The American Dream not so much fading as changing.

Reciting the same grim statistics about unemployment and falling wages yet again is what "isn't going to get anyone anywhere." But this sort of conversation? Quite the opposite.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#82

I'm so sick of hearing about how bad we--us poor, lost kids from Generation Y--have it. I'm so sick of hearing about the odds, about the unemployment rate, about how everything's our fault because we're too entitled, or about how nothing's our fault because the economy you see. I live in a rented house with several other young folks trying to get by in our industry. I'm working today instead of taking a bus home to s…

That's nice. A lot of my former college friends are on food stamps, and workaholism is no dream of mine.

I hope things work out for your friends--stamps are a good temporary measure while you get back on your feet, and if they're good folks I'm sure that'll happen in no time. :)

As far as workaholism goes--cliched though it may be, the saying "If you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life" is something I've found to be quite true.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea also brings up a moral question - how do you justify forcing children of the rich to suffer in order to counteract the bad parenting habits of the poor?

The poor are poor because they have an average IQ in the 80s, barely above mental retardation. Their children are the same way because it is genetic. The school busing amd integration programs are about political subjugation of the high class, not assistance to the lower class.

You're shitting me, right? Please show me the studies you draw upon.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#84
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why not? People are healthier than ever before... There's no evidence this is true. You realize in the US 30% of the population is obese and almost 10% of us have diabetes, right? >...and are working jobs that require much less physical endurance. Right, because sitting at a desk for forty years is the key to good health. >Again, if you're living longer, your usefulness is decaying at a slower rate. And again, there…

> You realize in the US 30% of the population is obese and almost 10% of us have diabetes, right? Those people are probably going to die at 60-70 y/o anyway. And besides, that's self-inflicted. Once people realize that it's preventing them from reaching their full lifespan, they'll change if they want to. And if they don't, well, I'm not gonna complain if I get better retirement benefits as a result. > Right, because…

>Those people are probably going to die at 60-70 y/o anyway.

Maybe, though doctors are getting pretty good at treating obesity-related problems. In any event they're going retire in their fifties (or earlier), so from a social services standpoint we're not coming out ahead.

> You can stay relatively healthy while working a desk job.

The key word being relatively. Taking a walk at lunch and spending an hour at the gym isn't going to make you as healthy as someone who does physical activity all day.

>There's no reason to believe it isn't true. Society has just accepted that people have to stop working at 65.

Actually, yes, there is a reason to believe it isn't true. We have made effectively zero progress in arresting age-related cognitive decline. Until we do you can raise the retirement age to whatever you want - even people who are still pretty sharp aren't going to be able to find jobs because employers won't want to chance hiring a madogiwa.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#85
post #56

I'm so sick of hearing about how bad we--us poor, lost kids from Generation Y--have it. I'm so sick of hearing about the odds, about the unemployment rate, about how everything's our fault because we're too entitled, or about how nothing's our fault because the economy you see. I live in a rented house with several other young folks trying to get by in our industry. I'm working today instead of taking a bus home to s…

An exercise in trading anecdotes isn't going to get anyone anywhere. The fact that the people you've surrounded yourself are relatively well off does not offset problems surrounding unemployment and falling wages.

The OP article is mostly anecdotes, too. And the author picks the hardest hit industries when he provides statistics.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nice. A lot of my former college friends are on food stamps, and workaholism is no dream of mine.

I hope things work out for your friends--stamps are a good temporary measure while you get back on your feet, and if they're good folks I'm sure that'll happen in no time. :) As far as workaholism goes--cliched though it may be, the saying "If you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life" is something I've found to be quite true.

It's true, but unhelpful. Until they're all replaced by robots and thrown out into the cold entirely as useless, unemployed bums, someone has to clean the toilets, stack the shelves, assemble the iPods, deliver the chemical supplies from one lab to another, etc. I can't abide the notion of simply condemning some fixed portion of society to suffer because the rest of us are too stingy to pay them a living wage, nor a majority of society to suffer because a combination of a deflationary demand crisis and rising automation have rendered their labors permanently obsolete.

EDIT: Speaking for myself personally, I quite like being a grad-student and researcher, but I really felt that programming in the corporate world was... just not for me. I'm actually pretty far up the skill chain and provably (ie: I've done it before) capable of bringing in a good deal more than a subsistence wage for myself, but that still doesn't mean I love the thing that makes me the most money or gives me the most sustainable career path.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#87

As a member of Generation Y, it is hard to have much sympathy for the "plight" of GenY compared to pretty much any other generation in world history. We haven't been drafted into foreign wars or had to suffer through a real depression. A third of us didn't die in an influenza epidemic. Our women and minorities haven't had to face entrenched and legally immovable workplace discrimination. We have had to face no real l…

I mean, it's now considered normal (and even a human right by some) to take 2-3 weeks vacation every year. Feudal peasants didn't work for months at a time each year.

Along similar lines, we aren't in factories building widgets. The concept of a fixed-hour working day, as opposed to "What shit needs to get done?", is something that should at least be open to question, especially in information industries.

If I can reduce the runtime of billing routines by half across the board, why the hell shouldn't I take a month off? When things are time-sensitive they're on such small scales (milli-, micro-, nano-) that you need a machine--everything else is just humans being nitpicky.

People should be able to work however much or little they need to get their work done, whenever is best for the work.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#88

From the article: "Three and a half years after the worst recession since the Great Depression, the earnings and employment gap between those in the under-35 population and their parents and grandparents threatens to unravel the American dream of each generation doing better than the last." There have been many postings to Hacker News recently with similar themes. The situation described increasingly looks like the s…

Official inflation statistics have also badly overstated increases in "cost of living" throughout my adult life, failing to take into account changed consumption patterns and changing (improving) quality of many goods and services, thus making people think they are poorer than they actually are. By observation of actual consumption patterns, young people today are better off in general than young people a generation ago, which is the consistent expectation of American culture.

It is an unending source of frustration to myself that smart people lump "consumption", "real income" or "GDP" into one amalgamated mass. Then we get in this endless arguments over whether "income" is going up or down, when in reality purchasing power consists of the ability to purchase all sorts of goods, some of which might be getting cheaper relative to income and some more expensive.

It is undeniable that the median purchasing power of luxury and entertainment goods - movies, books, music, computing power, video games, sushi, gourmet coffee, cars with AC, etc, has massively increased in the past forty years. (However, from a hedonics standpoint it's not clear that there has been much improvement - the bowling leagues, poker nights, and bridge clubs of the 1960's seem plenty enough to maximize happiness, video games are not necessarily any better from that standpoint).

It is also true that the median purchasing power of the necessities of life - transportation and fuel to get to work, a home in a neighborhood with low crime and friendly schools, health insurance that covers the basics care, nutritious food - has gone down. Try building a basket of goods consisting of the cheapest automobile that can you get an average person to work every day, the gasoline to power that car, natural gas to heat the home, the median home amortized with a mortgage at the contemporary interest rate, the cheapest healthcare plan on the market, and balanced food diet of grains, meat, and vegetables. Then compare the price of that basket compared to the median wage of a full time, 30 something, male worker in 1970 to that in 2010. I have done that math, and found that the purchasing power of the median worker has decreased substanitially ( by about 23%). Most of this decline in purchasing power came from the rapid rise in the cost of housing, oil, and healthcare.

The normal reubttal is that the quality of the cheapest car in 2010 has nicer amenities than the cheapest car in 1970. The median home is much larger than the median home in 1970. This is true. But there is no existing option in 2010 to buy the 1970 car or 1970 home at a cheaper price. And from a hedonics standpoint, trading financial stress for a bigger home is not a good trade.

Because the decrease in median purchasing power is concentrated in the basic cost of living, many young adults have made a decision to defer or forgoe raising families. This gives a surplus income which can then be spent on all manners of luxuries unknown to the typical worker in 1970. So from outside appearance, it can appear that the standard of living has improved greatly.

So from my opinion it is great that we have the internt and kindles and such.

But real life is not GDP statistics - the growth in one area does not necessarily negate the decline in other.

The existence of kindles does not negate the problem of declining purchasing power of the base necessities of living. This decline is still a huge problem that must be addressed.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope things work out for your friends--stamps are a good temporary measure while you get back on your feet, and if they're good folks I'm sure that'll happen in no time. :) As far as workaholism goes--cliched though it may be, the saying "If you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life" is something I've found to be quite true.

It's true, but unhelpful . Until they're all replaced by robots and thrown out into the cold entirely as useless, unemployed bums, someone has to clean the toilets, stack the shelves, assemble the iPods, deliver the chemical supplies from one lab to another, etc. I can't abide the notion of simply condemning some fixed portion of society to suffer because the rest of us are too stingy to pay them a living wage, nor a…

(Last Sunday I spent two hours powersnaking out a clogged commercial sewer line, so believe me that I have sympathy for shit jobs.)

I completely agree with you both that we shouldn't condemn people to work annoying jobs and that we shouldn't be corporate drones (regardless of pay).

I think that the key to fixing a lot of this is to have it easier to move around and find interesting work--if I get sick of writing code, I should be able to find a gig doing plumbing, or carpentry, or stacking, or whatnot, until I'm ready to code again.

I think that the problem we're dancing around as a society is that physical jobs are not selected-for by the market as much as they once were (due to either automation or foreign labor), and professional jobs are a few JSON blobs and sorting algorithms away from being deprecated.

We need to figure out how to deal with an educated, intelligent, and most importantly easily-bored citizenry. It's no longer enough to say "Well, everybody has to work jobs they hate, so suck it up!". If we can't solve around that, well, we're in trouble.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I support United States policies that move in the direction of east Asian rather than western European patterns of government spending and social welfare This is going to be very difficult to pull off without a massive cultural change. The Confucian influence on East Asian culture has resulted in a much higher degree of filial piety (孝) than in the West, which makes it possible for people to live in old age without…

I'm pretty sure this is a foregone conclusion. There's simply no way around the math other than increasing the retirement age. If you go back 50 or 100 years, people didn't sit around for 20 or 30 years after retiring doing nothing - they simply died earlier. So if you're going to live until 80 or 90, you'd better work until at least 75. If you go back 50 or 100 years, productivity-per-hour was a tiny fraction of wha…

If you go back a 100 years, people shat in outhouses and died of TB. Only the rich retired.

Why do we decree by fiat that everyone has a moral obligation which we will enforce via the economic system to spend at least half their waking hours working for most of their lifespan?

We don't.

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