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American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

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Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#61
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've picked on the worst-off countries in western Europe, but tell me about the best-off like Germany or Scandinavian countries. As far as I can tell, they have pretty generous social welfare schemes but are pretty sound economically. How does that factor into your model? Could it be that other cultural factors are at play?

I think that may be a hint that he's blaming the wrong things: it's pretty strange to blame the U.S.'s social-welfare system for the country's disparities, when the U.S.'s social-welfare system is so stingy. Social Security is not why the older generation has so much more money, because it's pretty impossible to get rich off a social-security check in the first place (I know elderly who live off social security, and…

The most ossified countries are the ones with the most expensive real-estate (places like urban italy, japan) where the birth rate collapses because the young cant afford to raise/support urban families. The US is now entereing that phase. The older generations are grandfathered (excuse the pun) into cheaper asset bases (10x incrrease in housing pricing in 40 years, etc) so even if they are not making $$ income they are controlling the much of the critial assets. Gen Yxz etx are just increaing their asset values (through externalities) by being young and hip and beautiful and in the neighborhood. That kind of think.

On the other hand, the income streams of the younger generatonis look much more like annuity than perpetuity. Iven if you make nice earning for a couple of years, housing/college debt is predicated on 30-50 years of consistent earnings. The consistency of any person X earnings today is pretty unlikely to persist. Even a successful person can be made obsolete in a 5 yrs timespan (say--company is sold, market changes, etc). This is thus leading to entirely odd outcomes as there is a mis-match of earnings/liabilities for personal balance sheets for teh yound. ie, moving jobs/et vs massive debt it takes to run housefold/pay for future kids school, etc.

Its also an equity problem for texes. one or two good years get taxed and two or three lean years later, you lost a bit chunk of earnings to takes. if you had smooth earnings, you would pay lower taxs, etc. whereas the older generation is sitting on tax-free capital gain on housing, so low income/low taxed, yet they are conrolling massive asset value.

This system is what killed japan culturally. zero percent interest rates will do that to you. so the future looks bright if you think the lottery style outcome is a good one to play, but on average it is losing bet except for those selling tickets.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#62
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's simply no way around the math other than increasing the retirement age. If you go back 50 or 100 years, people didn't sit around for 20 or 30 years after retiring doing nothing - they simply died earlier. So if you're going to live until 80 or 90, you'd better work until at least 75. That works out mathematically, but it's not going to work in practice. Just because you don't die before you're 90 doesn't mea…

> Just because you don't die before you're 90 doesn't mean you can work any longer than your grandparents did Why not? People are healthier than ever before, and are working jobs that require much less physical endurance. > even assuming somebody still wants to employ you Again, if you're living longer, your usefulness is decaying at a slower rate.

I would suspect that there is quite a high variability in capability and survival prospects at age 70. The ones least able to be likely to afford to retire might be those that need to the most.

I don't have a particular solution to offer but looking at averages oversimplifies issues like this.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. So my initial statement ass…

This idea also brings up a moral question - how do you justify forcing children of the rich to suffer in order to counteract the bad parenting habits of the poor?

It's not justifiable, but more than that, it's not even tenable.

Rich "enough" parents (for some value of enough) will invest to send their kids to boarding school in London or Zurich rather than let them be the "beneficiaries" of a social engineering experiment.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#64
post #27

Less jobs for lawyers generally seems like a good thing to me. Like investment banks lawyers do not create much (any?) value. That's a good sign for society. There may be some hope left. Now it's not good for those who wasted a lot of money on a law school. They made a bad decision and will adjust.

And there is already lots of pointless patent litigation being thrown around.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#65
post #48

As a member of Generation Y, it is hard to have much sympathy for the "plight" of GenY compared to pretty much any other generation in world history. We haven't been drafted into foreign wars or had to suffer through a real depression. A third of us didn't die in an influenza epidemic. Our women and minorities haven't had to face entrenched and legally immovable workplace discrimination. We have had to face no real l…

You're saying that every generation starts with nothing, as if they were new immigrants to this country. If so, then the American Dream is dead. Most immigrants worked hard because they believed that they could pass on a better life to their children. They saved to put their kids through college so that their future generations could have a nice life, white collar jobs, take vacations, etc. But if they knew that futu…

I totally agree--the whole point of the American Dream is to pass on better opportunity to your children. The fact is, that GenX largely accomplished this (for maybe the first time in history). In terms of being able to create even a marginally better life outcome, GenY is largely a victim of our parents' success. My only point is that our "victimhood" has to be put in historical perspective.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#66
Law (which OP focuses on) is a bizarre profession, because it used to be driven by an arms race dynamic. Most of what lawyers do, at the top of the profession, isn't intellectually difficult. The game is about being able to generate work for the other team faster than they can adapt to it. When litigation happens between large corporations, it's about playing the process, not arguing or interpreting the law itself. It devolves into brute-force process playing. It's not what you see in the movies, since cases so rarely go to trial.

So, even though the work itself isn't challenging, large law firms have traditionally sought very qualified people, not because of the work, but because there's a complex, ever-evolving game in this war of attrition. The winning team is the one that generates work faster than the other can keep up, and you need to be smart, driven, and brutal enough to work the angles. This also explains the 70-hour weeks that became the norm in biglaw. The game is about beating the other side to death with excess work, so the best hires are people who can do huge amounts of boring, procedural work and not get completely exhausted.

What changed is that there's now less work to go around, due to cost-cutting and "demand destruction" among these firms' Wall Street clientele. There's no longer 70 hours of work per associate. Now the firms are overstaffed relative to the actual workload. Well, the partners want to keep their lifestyles, so associates get axed. What's most disgusting about it is the recent trend of "stealthing", which is disguising a layoff as a performance-based firing.

There's also a bimodal income distribution. There's "biglaw" which has a hard salary floor of $165k per year, and "everything else" where the average might be $50k. Law is one profession where it's not at all uncommon to be making less at 35 (after not making partner, and being lucky if you crack 120k) than at 26.

White-shoe law is melting down. So is investment banking, on which it relies, but banking's degradation is more graceful. Banking is just hiring fewer people and reducing bonuses, while law has this problem of large numbers of marginally qualified people who've spent large amounts of money on JD degrees.

What have we learned from the Law Crash? (Yes, there was a Law Bubble, and boy has it crashed.) I think the lesson is about how of an influence respectability has over peoples' work lives. The attraction of the legal profession wasn't just the money, but also the prestige. You're not some plumber or computer programmer-- occupations whose average members now seem to be doing better than average attorneys-- you're a lawyer. Even now, with law imploded, I think that impulse is strong. What we're out of touch with is that most upper-middle-class Americans would see it as weird and risky for a young person to go off to Silicon Valley, and upper-class would only approve it if you were a VC, not an entrepreneur.

People are desperate for the credibility and respectability of being a "professional", but the professions are under attack. Doctors are being pillaged by health-insurance barbarians, the law bubble is collapsing, and academia's a non-concern by this point. Which means that the best (and, for many, only) ways for most people to make a decent living are in formerly "unrefined" lines of work. For a lot of people, it's a shock.

Millennials, for their part, often feel cheated out of this. They should. They were put through a 16+ year game to lead them to believe they'd have a certain kind of elite life, and then most were dumped into a featureless landfill of confusion and mediocrity. They've been pumped and dumped.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#67
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's simply no way around the math other than increasing the retirement age. If you go back 50 or 100 years, people didn't sit around for 20 or 30 years after retiring doing nothing - they simply died earlier. So if you're going to live until 80 or 90, you'd better work until at least 75. That works out mathematically, but it's not going to work in practice. Just because you don't die before you're 90 doesn't mea…

> Just because you don't die before you're 90 doesn't mean you can work any longer than your grandparents did Why not? People are healthier than ever before, and are working jobs that require much less physical endurance. > even assuming somebody still wants to employ you Again, if you're living longer, your usefulness is decaying at a slower rate.

>Why not? People are healthier than ever before...

There's no evidence this is true. You realize in the US 30% of the population is obese and almost 10% of us have diabetes, right?

>...and are working jobs that require much less physical endurance.

Right, because sitting at a desk for forty years is the key to good health.

>Again, if you're living longer, your usefulness is decaying at a slower rate.

And again, there's no reason to believe this is true. Modern medicine isn't the panacea you seem to think it is, and the fact that your heart doesn't stop beating doesn't mean you're still in shape to work.

Even aside from physical maladies (which is a big aside), it's normal to be a bit forgetful when you're seventy purely through age-related cognitive decline. It doesn't matter much if you spend your days puttering around the house, but if someone is paying you to do a job the situation is different.

Maybe before the money runs out we'll see enough medical advances to make working to 75 doable for the average person, but without those advances that's just not going to happen.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#68

As a member of Generation Y, it is hard to have much sympathy for the "plight" of GenY compared to pretty much any other generation in world history. We haven't been drafted into foreign wars or had to suffer through a real depression. A third of us didn't die in an influenza epidemic. Our women and minorities haven't had to face entrenched and legally immovable workplace discrimination. We have had to face no real l…

Another thing occurred to me, which is that the identifier of "GenY" usually comes with the implied notion that we are the children of GenX--in other words, that our parents were boomers, a very specific socioeconomic group that is mostly made up of the white, educated, middle class of the 60's and 70's and excludes large swaths of the American populace: both those who immigrated post-1970 and those whose ascendence didn't take place in earnest until the mid-70's (most African Americans and Hispanics). The idea that all people of our age group are members of GenY is a very GenX-centric notion, based on our supposed genealogical link to the boomers and the Greatest Generation, and the term itself is prone to subtle prejudice. Many people of our age group are not a member of this genealogy, and thus probably (although I can't say for sure) don't identify as "GenY."

The obvious implication is that for GenYs to claim persecution by the system they may not be realizing that they subconsciously exclude people that often are much more persecuted than they are, adding another myopic layer to their solipsism.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#70
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're only an investment if you buy more housing than you need. After all, you need housing, so when you sell that home at increased value, you will need to use that revenue to buy new housing which has also risen in cost. In short, only if you can sell your home and buy a cheaper home can it be considered an investment. Otherwise it's just non-liquid capital.

In theory, if you buy enough housing to fit a few kids then you'll have more housing than you need by the time you're looking at retirement, so you can cash out your 'investment'. Of course, in reality this never seems to actually happen.

Lots of people are doing this / have done exactly this.

My parents and many of their generational peers (boomers +/- 10 years) did the large house thing in the 1960s-1980s in order to raise the kids, then sold their large house and moved to a smaller house or condo as the kids moved out in the 1990s-2000s.

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