American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals • Hacker News Board

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#31

Post by btilly » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:07 PM UTC

Back in 2008 I was reading articles based on previous financial crises saying that after the kind of debt crisis that the USA was then going through, the average was 10 years to really recover, followed by a return to normal growth. So, 4 years in, things still suck.

If that is true, we should have about 6 years left until the American dream starts to work again across much of the country. Unfortunately for everyone who entered the work force in that 10 year period, initial poor wages tend to turn into lifetime poor earnings. A whole generation does indeed look set to lose out economically for their whole lives.

But if you can adjust to current reality, your future is likely to be better than your present. You just have to set expectations realistically low.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#32

Post by hnhg » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:09 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #3

From the article: "Three and a half years after the worst recession since the Great Depression, the earnings and employment gap between those in the under-35 population and their parents and grandparents threatens to unravel the American dream of each generation doing better than the last." There have been many postings to Hacker News recently with similar themes. The situation described increasingly looks like the s…

You've picked on the worst-off countries in western Europe, but tell me about the best-off like Germany or Scandinavian countries. As far as I can tell, they have pretty generous social welfare schemes but are pretty sound economically. How does that factor into your model? Could it be that other cultural factors are at play?

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#33

Post by ap22213 » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:19 PM UTC

One of the puzzling parts of the current working situation is that the people who are working seem to be putting in way more hours and effort than they used to.

What I can't put a finger on is the underlying reason why me and about all of my working friends have almost zero time anymore to do recreational activities, or to spend time with our families and friends. We workers seem all over-burdened with our work. But, it hasn't always been this way. Our workloads have been slowly but steadily creeping up since the 90s.

And, the companies that we're working for are overflowing with cash. Yet, these same companies aren't hiring new people to alleviate the situation. Often, the excuse I hear is that there are no qualified people to hire.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#34

Post by _delirium » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:22 PM UTC

hnhg wrote: post #32

tokenadult wrote: post #3

From the article: "Three and a half years after the worst recession since the Great Depression, the earnings and employment gap between those in the under-35 population and their parents and grandparents threatens to unravel the American dream of each generation doing better than the last." There have been many postings to Hacker News recently with similar themes. The situation described increasingly looks like the s…

You've picked on the worst-off countries in western Europe, but tell me about the best-off like Germany or Scandinavian countries. As far as I can tell, they have pretty generous social welfare schemes but are pretty sound economically. How does that factor into your model? Could it be that other cultural factors are at play?

I think that may be a hint that he's blaming the wrong things: it's pretty strange to blame the U.S.'s social-welfare system for the country's disparities, when the U.S.'s social-welfare system is so stingy. Social Security is not why the older generation has so much more money, because it's pretty impossible to get rich off a social-security check in the first place (I know elderly who live off social security, and they live at a subsistence level). The well-off older people with huge retirement accounts got them from the private sector and the stock market.

What's changed is that the '60s-'90s economic/employment situation is probably not going to repeat itself. My dad had basically a guaranteed-for-life job once he got a college degree, and a generous defined-benefit corporate pension, neither of which really exist anymore. And if you didn't go that route, you could apprentice in a skilled trade and also have a good middle-class job.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#35

Post by plorkyeran » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:23 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #26

phillmv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why, they're investments. Of course you want prices to go up! You're sinking a huge quantity of money - presumably, above that of an equivalent rental unit in your region - and by golly, you need returns on that or else you're just fritting it all away. It's all compounded by the fact that housing is the only major asset investment that the vast majority of people ever engage in.

They're only an investment if you buy more housing than you need. After all, you need housing, so when you sell that home at increased value, you will need to use that revenue to buy new housing which has also risen in cost. In short, only if you can sell your home and buy a cheaper home can it be considered an investment. Otherwise it's just non-liquid capital.

In theory, if you buy enough housing to fit a few kids then you'll have more housing than you need by the time you're looking at retirement, so you can cash out your 'investment'.

Of course, in reality this never seems to actually happen.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#36

Post by koralatov » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:26 PM UTC

hnhg wrote: post #32

tokenadult wrote: post #3

From the article: "Three and a half years after the worst recession since the Great Depression, the earnings and employment gap between those in the under-35 population and their parents and grandparents threatens to unravel the American dream of each generation doing better than the last." There have been many postings to Hacker News recently with similar themes. The situation described increasingly looks like the s…

You've picked on the worst-off countries in western Europe, but tell me about the best-off like Germany or Scandinavian countries. As far as I can tell, they have pretty generous social welfare schemes but are pretty sound economically. How does that factor into your model? Could it be that other cultural factors are at play?

Based on talking with Norwegians, who are quite numerous in my part of the UK, the relative health of their social welfare schemes compared with the UK's mostly due to a much, much higher level of taxation, and a huge cultural difference regarding levels of entitlement.

The `professional' unemployed, for example, don't appear to exist in anything like the same numbers in Norway, which removes a significant source of drain. Early retirement, which was fashionable here for a good number of years, is almost unheard of there. The expected level of pensions in Norway is lower too; here, people employed in the public sector routinely expect their pension to be ~50% of their final salary.

Taxation on nearly everything makes it much more expensive than it is over here. One notable example was the sports car of a man I know: here, it cost him about £30k; in Norway, the exact same model would have cost him more than three times as much. (That's an apples-to-apples comparison -- I'm not erroneously comparing a Kroner amount to a Sterling amount.) Another thing he was amazed about was how `cheap' cigarettes and alcohol are in the UK; somewhere between one-half and one-third the price they are in Norway.

I don't know enough about Germany to explain their success, but my impression is that it's partially a cultural thing, and partially that they still have a strong, manufacturing-based economy.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#37

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:27 PM UTC

saosebastiao wrote: post #15

Gen Y's and Baby Boomers are the two largest examples of irrationality that this nation has ever seen. Gen Y for thinking that you can just do whatever you want and expect a high salary for it. I look at my peers from high school and can't believe some of the entitlement issues they have. Boomers for thinking that they could continuously f * over an entire generation with their robbing of social welfare systems and e…

To be fair some of the feelings of entitlement and the sense of "do whatever you want" of Gen Y come from the boomers.

When growing up I remember being told from an early age by adults that my generation would have it great, their generation was putting everything in place for peace and prosperity such as access to education, better medicine and technology etc.

The overriding message was really just to work hard and everything would come good. It didn't matter whether you studied the liberal arts, technology or just got a job straight out of school and worked your way up.

Now Gen Y have grown up and complain "getting a job with liveable pay and reasonable stability is hard, and I have a masters!" they get told "the world doesn't owe you a living!" which is technically true but non helpful.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#38

Post by andrewvc » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:28 PM UTC

ronnier wrote: post #21

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. So my initial statement ass…

>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. I was the product of one of these experiments. The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. I…

Yeah, I'm in a similar camp. I'm white, and a product of the LAUSD (Los Angeles) magnet program, which attempted to integrate schools well. Problem is, you're mostly integrating white kids with the minority kids who have parents motivated enough to put them in the magnet program.

My schools had both magnet and non magnet kids in them. What this wound up accomplishing was pretty obvious, there was segregation between the two populations. Walking out at lunch one could see the school was divided by a stark line, a line that was about 70% white where the magnet kids hung out, and mixed elsewhere.

It probably helped some people from minorities in the magnet, but I'm sure the dividing line just reinforced race and class barriers in the minds of those on both sides.

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#39

Post by gritzko » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:29 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #24

ronnier wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. I was the product of one of these experiments. The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. I…

> The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. Sounds like this was done the wrong way around. What percentage of the students at your school were white? You got your ass beat because you were in the minority, and you were in their school. The best way to change behavior is to intimidate the students through intense peer pressu…

Normal people feel uncomfortable betting their children to prove somebody's else theories...

Re: American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

#40

Post by koralatov » Sun, Dec 23, 2012, 6:31 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #22

As a member of Generation Y, it is hard to have much sympathy for the "plight" of GenY compared to pretty much any other generation in world history. We haven't been drafted into foreign wars or had to suffer through a real depression. A third of us didn't die in an influenza epidemic. Our women and minorities haven't had to face entrenched and legally immovable workplace discrimination. We have had to face no real l…

Not that I'm defending grumblers, but I think a lot of the upset and anger comes from the fact that the opportunities aren't as readily available as they once were. The developed world is a much more regimented place than it once was, with fewer employers will to take chances on the people they employ. The classic trap a lot of Gen Y find themselves in is that they're not considered for jobs because they don't have experience, and can't get experience because they can't get the jobs. It's a pretty good catch-22.