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M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

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Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#51

Post by Spooky23 »

throw0101a wrote: post #27
mapontosevenths wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Issue with storage is you need shelf stability without ongoing electrical/mechanical work refreshing data time to time. For what? Nothing we do today will be even remotely important in 1,000 years. Any tiny fraction of a fraction that is important will have been copied thousands, millions, or billions of times into various formats. "I met a traveller from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of sto…

> For what? Nothing we do today will be even remotely important in 1,000 years. All sort of things done a thousand years ago still shape how we live today: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta * https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/2187985.The_Origins_o... * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3624887-the-medieval-ori... Who knows what the actions of a single, seemingly inconsequential, individual could trig…

The data isn’t the valuable aspect of those examples. The metadata is!

We have a bunch of family photos that were preserved for a few generations. It sucks, many of them we know who they are, the most are lost to time and the death of memory.

Pictures without the context are just images of dead people. With the story, they are priceless memories.

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#52

Post by shevy-java »

Making a 1000 years future claim is very bold, if not to say: marketing.

I think CDs and DVDs largely died because of USB devices. I have like a 10cm x 15cm external harddisc. So it is not that expensive and can store 5TB of data. It also won't last forever but that is not so important; if it lasts +10 years that's already fine. Usually you may then purchase a cheaper new device, that probably then has more storage too. And you may have some backup devices too. CDs and DVDs in this context are not very convenient, a bit like how they replaced the older floppy devices (oddly enough I liked floppy discs more than CDs and DVDs, in particular the ones you could twist, they also would fly like crazy through the air; the smaller harder floppy discs were also nice, I remember them from the Amiga days, but the flexible ones were epic. Storage devices today are much better but nowhere near as fun).

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#53

Post by mapontosevenths »

ndiddy wrote: post #47
mapontosevenths wrote: post #23

Verbatim, who owns M-Disc, doesn't even manufacture discs anymore. They just slap their brand on other peoples discs. The discs sold as M-Discs now are actually just MABL BD-R's. They used to have a 'stone' data layer. Now they use a titanium metal data layer. MABL discs were always designed to last for about 100 years, and are orders of magnitude cheaper. 100 years is long enough, and 1000 years was always a wild-as…

A German news site reached out to Verbatim about this and got the response that the discs are still M-Discs and will still last 1,000 years: https://www.heise.de/news/Langzeitarchivierung-Verwirrung-um... > Verbatim clarified that these discs were advancements. The technical changes resulted in a different appearance and the ability for higher burning speeds, the changed media-ID was due to an adaptation with regard…

That's truly a strange article.

Even verbatim's own website no longer makes the thousand year claim. Saying instead "several hundred years".

However their website also claims that the disc's use "etched" stone-like data layers, which is also demonstrably not true. Their own marketing says titanium in other places (on the spindle insert).

I think that Verbatim (or their shambling post-buyout animated corpse) just lies a lot or is filled with confusion about their own product.

https://www.verbatim.com/en/m-disc/products/43847-m-disc-bd-...

> I'm not sure what you mean by "Verbatim just slaps their brand on other people's discs".

I wasn't aware of the chain of ownership. That said, they literally sell the same disc identifier as both m-disc and non m-disc.

I don't think it's just a reused ID either. If you put them next each other they're identical, and they use the same media label. The old disc's were both visually distinct and had a unique ID.

The only difference zeems to be packaging. I don't doubt that it's the same quality.

They stopped selling the much worse LTH discs and all the disc's are good now.

M-disc buyers get what they pay for (if they expect 100 years rather than 1000), it's just that everyone else also gets that for less money.

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#54

Post by mrandish »

Did a little research on BDXL because the need for multi-decade backup longevity, which I never worried much about, became more relevant now that I recently retired and have time to read some 80s 5.25, 3.5 floppies and 8mm/Hi8. Would be fun to see some of the first assembler I ever wrote.

I learned:

* Standard BDXL: ~$6/disc / M-Disc BDXL: ~$12 (longer lasting)

* Write/verify to 100GB BDXL discs at 4x is ~2 mins/GB.

* TFA says "128 GB BDXL never made it to market due to the 2016 bankruptcy" but a larger reason is that even though 128GB ( 4 vs 3 layer) was in the standard, it wasn't well-characterized. Turns out adding the fourth laser was harder/costlier than expected and read reliability was poorer. 100GB 3 layer is the sweet spot.

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#55

Post by fenaer »

I've looked into M-Disc several times, as a way to backup and archive my personal and family data over the course of my lifetime (and possibly the next generation).

The relative obscurity of the format, the drama around Verbatim's acquisition and the dwindling options for a Blu-Ray player ultimately keep me from investing in it.

Honestly, I'd love a shelf-stable storage mechanism that isn't tape.

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#56

Post by bob1029 »

nikanj wrote: post #44
steveBK123 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk is they get bored and retire it / retention terms start to get iffy / they 100x prices.

Or their AI chatbot decides you smell funny and bans you forever with 0 chance of appealing to a human

I think the most realistic concern here is amazon scanning your backups. I totally get it. A lot of the reason for retaining total control over the storage medium is that what is being stored isn't strictly legal.

You should locally encrypt 100% of the information you store on someone else's system with strong symmetric encryption. In fact, I think Amazon's legal team would quietly prefer that you do this.

Dumping a bunch of bare files named things like:

  THE.ODYSSEY.2026.2160p.WEB-DL.DDP5.1.DV.HDR.H.265-GROUP.mkv
into S3 buckets is probably a bad idea.

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#57

Post by gosub100 »

hulitu wrote: post #2

> M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs citation needed. My DVD/Blu-ray writer does not support M-DISC > may last up to 1000 years or may not. Who knows ?

agreed. this is the same industry that blatantly lies about capacity too.

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#58

Post by steveBK123 »

bob1029 wrote: post #56
nikanj wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or their AI chatbot decides you smell funny and bans you forever with 0 chance of appealing to a human

I think the most realistic concern here is amazon scanning your backups. I totally get it. A lot of the reason for retaining total control over the storage medium is that what is being stored isn't strictly legal. You should locally encrypt 100% of the information you store on someone else's system with strong symmetric encryption. In fact, I think Amazon's legal team would quietly prefer that you do this. Dumping a…

Local encryption is not going to help 100 year recoverability

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#59

Post by some-guy »

fenaer wrote: post #55

I've looked into M-Disc several times, as a way to backup and archive my personal and family data over the course of my lifetime (and possibly the next generation). The relative obscurity of the format, the drama around Verbatim's acquisition and the dwindling options for a Blu-Ray player ultimately keep me from investing in it. Honestly, I'd love a shelf-stable storage mechanism that isn't tape.

It’s far from perfect but old 500gb to 1tb drive lots from ebay are the cold storage” part of my backup plan.

Re: M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

#60

Post by esskay »

some-guy wrote: post #59
fenaer wrote: post #55

I've looked into M-Disc several times, as a way to backup and archive my personal and family data over the course of my lifetime (and possibly the next generation). The relative obscurity of the format, the drama around Verbatim's acquisition and the dwindling options for a Blu-Ray player ultimately keep me from investing in it. Honestly, I'd love a shelf-stable storage mechanism that isn't tape.

It’s far from perfect but old 500gb to 1tb drive lots from ebay are the cold storage” part of my backup plan.

IIRC the expected lifespan of a brand new drive in cold storage that has been written to once is 10-15 years. The platters were technically fine after that, it was the lubricants and the screws rusting that caused them to fail. The latter of course is heavily dependant on where they are stored.
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