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GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

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Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#81

Post by jcurbo »

dasht wrote: post #61

For a time I too was the maintainer for GNU sed. Part of that time I was paid by the FSF for that work (this was a long time ago, when the FSF had a small staff working directly on the Hurd and GNU). When I started, GNU sed was very incompatible with the relatively new Posix standard for sed. When I finished, it was less incompatible. It was during this same time that I started work on a new regexp engine for sed but…

> That was never a clear enough, coherent enough, or informed enough vision of the complete GNU project and, consequently, GNU has never really successfully gelled. You can grab some "100% libre" distributions, these days, but only barely. There is no sustainable culture and technical organization there ("yet", I hope).

Debian is a 100% free distribution, with a strong culture and high technical organization. It was the GNU distribution in the 90's until they parted ways.

Are there not dozens if not hundreds of distributions of free software based on Linux and the GNU core? Compared to the early days of Linux (and GNU as well), I'd say Free Software as a whole is doing pretty good. The very existence of those distributions and the amount of software based upon them is your sustainable culture and technical organization. Canonical and Red Hat could go away tomorrow and they'd still be there.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#82

Post by epistasis »

chernevik wrote: post #62

All disagreements aside, I'm deeply grateful for the efforts made to maintain and extend tools like sed. I can't help see posts like this and worry about the perpetuation of open source, and wish I had the chops to do more to help. As I write I'm downloading a Raspberry Pi image for my son's hardware. I'm getting him an Arduino, a soldering iron and a book for Christmas. I'm looking forward to learning along with him…

> I can't help see posts like this and worry about the perpetuation of open source, and wish I had the chops to do more to help.

I wouldn't worry about open source, that is thriving and alive. "Free software" is different, and very specialized. I also deeply disagree with RMS, but further I disagree with "free software" being the one true way (though I happily use it), and think that open source is better all around, for everyone.

[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.h...

[2] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#83

Post by keypusher »

geofft wrote: post #25
dfc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gnome is the new GNU" I have heard this before but never really understood what it was supposed to convey? Is this statement purely from a technical viewpoint? Has Gnome done a lot of work with licensing and activism that I have not heard about?

GNU is about developing a free distribution. The FSF is about licensing and activism. They're basically the same organization, but "GNOME is the new GNU" is a very different claim from "GNOME is the new FSF". And yes, you can basically get a complete distribution from GNOME these days, although you're better off going through one of the real distros. And they are contributing the bulk of technical work for the distri…

This only holds true if your idea of a "complete distribution" is the desktop environment. Gnome team doesn't do work on kernel, core tools, package managers, init system, drivers, etc. While gnome contributes important work to the average desktop user, most servers run distros with no gnome packages, and even no desktop. Linux is a lot more than a window manager and associated applications.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#84

Post by pron »

dasht wrote: post #61

For a time I too was the maintainer for GNU sed. Part of that time I was paid by the FSF for that work (this was a long time ago, when the FSF had a small staff working directly on the Hurd and GNU). When I started, GNU sed was very incompatible with the relatively new Posix standard for sed. When I finished, it was less incompatible. It was during this same time that I started work on a new regexp engine for sed but…

> He was sharp and I assume that, in spite of his age, he still is.

Seriously? He's not 100, you know. Why wouldn't he be as sharp, or sharper, than ever?

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#85

Post by eropple »

chimeracoder wrote: post #64
tytso wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the Linux Kernel's position is that we want the contributions from companies like Tivo, because even though a particular device might be locked down. Contributions from companies like Tivo, and Sony, and Samsung, which may have some of their products with locked down devices, are nevertheless valid contributions which will help make the Linux kernel better --- and those contributions can also be used in complet…

> I'm fairly confident the threat of not being able to buy a general purpose computer is not a high probability outcome. I already have to go very far out of my way and pay a huge premium for getting an unlocked Android phone. As phones/tables supplant many "general-purpose" computer use cases, this threat is only increasing, if current trends continue.

I already have to go very far out of my way and pay a huge premium for getting an unlocked Android phone.

How is that the case? I pay less for my Nexus devices than I'd pay for any locked-down phone (either up-front or given the increased cost of a subsidized-phone plan).

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#86

Post by [deleted] »

chimeracoder wrote: post #66
yxhuvud wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but you cannot have both the cake and eat it. You either have to compromise on users or on developers. GPL license writers choose not to compromise on users by enforcing that modifications are contributed back. BSD license writers choose not to compromise on developers by allowing developers to use the code as they see fit, no strings attached. These are not compatible. There are either strings attached as in G…

> You either have to compromise on users or on developers. Developers are users. > There are either strings attached as in GPL or there are not, as in BSD. From the way you're phrasing this, it's clear you miss the free software paradigm altogether. There are no strings attached. The ability for some users to limit other users' freedoms isn't one of the four freedoms.

[deleted]

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#87

Post by nnq »

> It is likely not possible to convince a diverse group such as the group of GNU maintainers to agree on coding standards for C++

...bluntly asking: why? (In any closed-source C++ project, if someone writes a "style guide and coding standard" thing and the project manager supports it, people start writing "compliant" code, grunting or moaning at first but they do, and then it becomes part of "company culture" and people find it natural to write code by it - I believe with Google's C++ was like this too... why does it has to be harder for an open source project?)

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#88

Post by yxhuvud »

chimeracoder wrote: post #66
yxhuvud wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but you cannot have both the cake and eat it. You either have to compromise on users or on developers. GPL license writers choose not to compromise on users by enforcing that modifications are contributed back. BSD license writers choose not to compromise on developers by allowing developers to use the code as they see fit, no strings attached. These are not compatible. There are either strings attached as in G…

> You either have to compromise on users or on developers. Developers are users. > There are either strings attached as in GPL or there are not, as in BSD. From the way you're phrasing this, it's clear you miss the free software paradigm altogether. There are no strings attached. The ability for some users to limit other users' freedoms isn't one of the four freedoms.

Sigh.

As a developer I have a problem to solve. GPL code comes with strings attach that LIMIT my ability to use it since the code I am writing does not have GPL compatible licensing. Thus it limits me as a developer.

I don't miss the free software ideology - I just don't care about it. I care about the software I write and of what the users want, nothing more and nothing less.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#89

Post by vacri »

dasht wrote: post #74
jeffdavis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that Red Hat and Canonical are a net negative for the community?

I think that RH and Canonical are very problematic for the community. They are a mixed bag containing a lot of good, but also containing some critical problems (for the cause of freedom). So I like to speak frankly about those problems, when I can.

Why not point out viable alternatives while making the criticisms of those two? Debian has a pedigree of broad, long-term professional use and is 100% free in both senses (barring a couple of firmware binaries in the 'speech' sense).

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#90

Post by bonzini »

dalke wrote: post #46
chimeracoder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's my point. "Open source" protects only the freedoms that relate to a portion of users (developers), whereas "free software" protects the freedoms that relate to all users.

I think we are, as the saying goes, in violent agreement. I don't understand where the either-or comes in.

Choosing a subset of users to satisfy will not protect the freedom of users as a whole.

Choosing to protect the freedom of users as a whole will dissatisfy developers who would like to have a different set of freedoms.

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