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GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

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Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#41
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do overlap, but Open Source Initiative doesn't care at all about users' freedoms, which I personally believe to be very important.

Agreed. It took a while for me to understand the idea that the free/open source difference is reasonably described as the difference between user freedoms and developer freedoms.

I like that distinction, but to be clear, the distinction isn't strictly an "either-or". It's pretty clear that "open source" is motivated by developer freedoms, but the fact that "free software" is motivated by user freedoms doesn't make it less about developer freedoms.

In other words, if you subscribe to the four tenets of software freedom as they pertain to users, "free software" also provides as much freedom to the developers as is possible without compromising on the users' freedoms.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#42

Copyright assignment is impractical, and a great way to eliminate outside contributions to a project.

But the polar opposite where companies like qualcomm are aggressively patenting techniques their employees 'contribute' to LLVM/CLANG with nary a suggestion of offering licensing that makes it lawful for anyone to use... thats okay?

What the FSF does has its costs and limitations, but when the mobile patent war spreads to LLVM and renders it unusable except in the underground and by a few large patent mongers, we'll be thankful for the FSF's licensing stewardship on GCC and the rest of the GNU projects.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#43
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It took a while for me to understand the idea that the free/open source difference is reasonably described as the difference between user freedoms and developer freedoms.

I like that distinction, but to be clear, the distinction isn't strictly an "either-or". It's pretty clear that "open source" is motivated by developer freedoms, but the fact that "free software" is motivated by user freedoms doesn't make it less about developer freedoms. In other words, if you subscribe to the four tenets of software freedom as they pertain to users, "free software" also provides as much freedom to…

Developers are a proper subset of users. There's no either-or here.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#44
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that distinction, but to be clear, the distinction isn't strictly an "either-or". It's pretty clear that "open source" is motivated by developer freedoms, but the fact that "free software" is motivated by user freedoms doesn't make it less about developer freedoms. In other words, if you subscribe to the four tenets of software freedom as they pertain to users, "free software" also provides as much freedom to…

Developers are a proper subset of users. There's no either-or here.

Well, that's my point. "Open source" protects only the freedoms that relate to a portion of users (developers), whereas "free software" protects the freedoms that relate to all users.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#45

I wouldn't characterize that as a rant, Rails is a Ghetto was a rant. This was more of a reasoned venting. Too bad though, the guy seems like he's poured a lot of himself into these projects (from an outsider looking in).

Rails is a Ghetto, for those who haven't read it: http://web.archive.org/web/20080103072111/http://www.zedshaw... A classic rant by Zed Shaw.

This is probably a more complete version: http://web.archive.org/web/20090107030956/http://www.zedshaw...

(I haven't yet read that piece)

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers are a proper subset of users. There's no either-or here.

Well, that's my point. "Open source" protects only the freedoms that relate to a portion of users (developers), whereas "free software" protects the freedoms that relate to all users.

I think we are, as the saying goes, in violent agreement.

I don't understand where the either-or comes in.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#47
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the open source movement overlap quite heavily with the ideals of free software? I know there are also significant differences, specially the tolerance of proprietary code. I'm not trying to start a flamewar here, just honestly curious why you think a 3rd alternative would bring change in any meaningful way. We have enough fragmentation as things stand.

They do overlap, but Open Source Initiative doesn't care at all about users' freedoms, which I personally believe to be very important.

Agreed, but it's sad because "Open Source" is a better name than "Free Software" since, unless they are familiar with GNU already, most people are going to interpret it as "software that doesn't cost anything" which couldn't be further from the point.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#48
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It took a while for me to understand the idea that the free/open source difference is reasonably described as the difference between user freedoms and developer freedoms.

I like that distinction, but to be clear, the distinction isn't strictly an "either-or". It's pretty clear that "open source" is motivated by developer freedoms, but the fact that "free software" is motivated by user freedoms doesn't make it less about developer freedoms. In other words, if you subscribe to the four tenets of software freedom as they pertain to users, "free software" also provides as much freedom to…

Sorry but you cannot have both the cake and eat it. You either have to compromise on users or on developers. GPL license writers choose not to compromise on users by enforcing that modifications are contributed back. BSD license writers choose not to compromise on developers by allowing developers to use the code as they see fit, no strings attached.

These are not compatible. There are either strings attached as in GPL or there are not, as in BSD.

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#49
post #20

If GNU BDFL is not supported by the community, and he wields his power unwisely, then maybe it is time for a fork - GNOME?

Except GNOME is a GNU project (the "G" in "GNOME" used to stand for "GNU"). This point was driven home about three years ago when RMS descended from upon high to decree that posts mentioning non-free software shouldn't be allowed on GNOME's blog aggregator, Planet GNOME.

Coincidentally, it was around this time that people started making noise about splitting GNOME off from GNU...

Re: GNU sed 4.2.2 released, maintainer resigns

#50
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It took a while for me to understand the idea that the free/open source difference is reasonably described as the difference between user freedoms and developer freedoms.

I like that distinction, but to be clear, the distinction isn't strictly an "either-or". It's pretty clear that "open source" is motivated by developer freedoms, but the fact that "free software" is motivated by user freedoms doesn't make it less about developer freedoms. In other words, if you subscribe to the four tenets of software freedom as they pertain to users, "free software" also provides as much freedom to…

Well, the Linux Kernel's position is that we want the contributions from companies like Tivo, because even though a particular device might be locked down. Contributions from companies like Tivo, and Sony, and Samsung, which may have some of their products with locked down devices, are nevertheless valid contributions which will help make the Linux kernel better --- and those contributions can also be used in completely free systems.

So it's basically a "stone soup" model, as it applies to developers. If you use my source code, you can use it for whatever you want, so long as my freedoms to get back your changes (which then I can use in whatever way I want, including in locked down devices) can go into the project.

As far as I am concerned, a locked-down device is a business model choice. It allows hardware to be sold for much less money, because it allows for alternate monetization strategies (i.e., the Tivo subscription services, video rentals, etc.) People who want to buy general purpose computers can always install the Open Source software on a machine of their choosing, and that's also fine. Whether you want to pay $199 or $699 and perhaps give up some freedoms as far as that particular device is concerned is also a choice which each user should be allowed to make on their own. After all, the freedom to choose is also a freedom.

Now, there are two counter-arguments to this perspective. Once is in a device with a mixed set of proprietary and free/open source software, it may not be possible to use the proprietary software on a general purpose computer. There the question is whether free software should be used as a bludgeon to force vendors of products which also use some proprietary code to give more freedoms to users (which may undermine certain business models as described above).

The second pontential argument is "what if there are no more general purpose computers". And there this is where the UEFI secure boot discussions become especially interesting. However, so long as it's possible to disable secure boot, or the hardware allows users to install signing keys of their own choosing, the threat of not being able to purchase general purpose computers where you can install software of your choice is not credible at least in the near term, and so long as we work hard to make sure it doesn't appear, I don't think will be a huge threat in the long term. You may not be able to get a general purpose computer with a quad-core CPU, 16 gigs of memory, etc., for $29.95 plus a two year subscription, but if you are willing to pay the full fair price, I'm fairly confident the threat of not being able to buy a general purpose computer is not a high probability outcome.

So the bottom line is we want developers to be able to be free to pursue business models that in turn allow users to be able to purchase devices that may not offer them the full set of freedomes --- but it's the user's choice that they get those locked-down devices. The FSF position is that they don't want their source code to ever be used in devices that might not allow users the full range of freedoms, even if it hurts the software project by turning away developers who have these business models that they disagree with.

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