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Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

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Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#361

Post by drysine »

flohofwoe wrote: post #314
drysine wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>His staff literally were absorbed into the Russian sand US space programs. Not really in case of the USSR. German group in Russia was isolated and Korolev didn't like competition. Soviet space program started by replicating German rocket, but once all production chains were created, it was off on its own course. I highly recommend English translation of memoirs of Boris Chertok[0] to anyone interested in the history…

That was just because the Russian's didn't trust "their" Germans as much as the Americans trusted "theirs". Operation Osoaviakhim was mostly about knowledge extraction, not about cooperation. The other difference was that the "Russian Germans" didn't go to Russia on their own will ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim ). Once the knowledge was "extracted" the Germans were allowed to return though (goo…

>as the Americans trusted "theirs"

Americans didn't trust either. But then Sputnik happened and Americans only had oopsnik[0], so they turned to neglected Redstone made by von Braun[1][2]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_TV-3#Reaction

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorer_1

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#U.S._Army_ca...

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#362

Post by swiftcoder »

This is an article title that needs a ton of caveats (the ESA launch site in French Guiana is indeed part of the European Union, and Russia's Plesetsk Cosmodrome is within continental Europe). Nonetheless the underlying achievement is impressive, and it's very good to see more private operators competing in space flight

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#363

Post by mytailorisrich »

scotty79 wrote: post #228
artisinal wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's legally true, but I think it misses the distinction between formal political status and the legacy of colonialism. French Guiana is an overseas department of France, and its residents have French citizenship and constitutional rights. But that doesn't mean the historical relationship was equivalent to mainland France, or that the effects of that history disappeared when the legal status changed. The same point…

How does it compare to Alaska? Wasn't it purchased as a colony from russians to exploit Alaskan gold with complete disreagrd for opinion of the native population?

A better comparison is with Hawaii.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#364

Post by frm88 »

kakacik wrote: post #309
peterfirefly wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vietnam The US was actually on the right side in that one (just like in Korea). The Communists were not exactly the good guys and their "agricultural and personnel reforms" lead to drastically reduced food production and starvation and death. Blame the US for real things instead, such as supporting the wrong side in Afghanistan in the '80s or ensuring the survival of the Soviet Union in the '40s.

Tell it to cca 2 millions civilians that died in Vietnam as a direct result of failed US invasion (I really mean just civilians mostly bombed into oblivion, entire human lives list is around 3 million). As in, vast majority of them would be alive is US didn't try their failed adventure. Tonkin gulf is a classic US made up war for power mongering reasons. Telling 'we're the good guys' while regularly bombing entire vi…

If you guys didn't support Soviet union in 40s...

You can go even farther back in time. If the US hadn't massively relieved the famine in Russia in 1920/21 there might have been a chance, Lenin and the Bolshevik regime wouldn't have survived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%9...

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#365

Post by drysine »

qwytw wrote: post #321
drysine wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>geopolitical wildcard How is Russia a wildcard? What unexpected thing do you think Russia has done?

Authoritarian dictatorships will always behave in seemingly irrational ways (from the perspective of sane politicians). Dictators will always put their personal ambition and "career" first before their country's interests. If Russia behaved rationally they would have made a deal with Ukraine (decades ago) that protected the rights of the Russian minorities in Ukraine and continued massively profiting from gas and oil…

> they would have made a deal with Ukraine (decades ago) that protected the rights of the Russian minorities in Ukraine and continued massively profiting from gas and oil exports into Europe.

Russia did, many times, last time in 2010.[0]

But the US and the EU didn't like it, so the coup in 2014 happened with American help[1] which overthrew democratically elected president of Ukraine who introduced the law protecting Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens.[2]

The law was repelled right after the coup and Crimeans supported the reunion with Russia.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_dis...

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine#201...

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#366

Post by swiftcoder »

anonymars wrote: post #156
xyzelement wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it mean that? Europe has had a space agency for a while now. So this story isn't "Europeans finally started to launch for space" but a private European company chose to launch from a continental location. It's funny how we can't be celebrate a European achievement without trying to interpret it into relationship to the US.

Have there been other rocket launches from continental Europe?

> Have there been other rocket launches from continental Europe?

Continental Europe? yes. The Russian's Plesetsk Cosmodrome is well within the boundaries of the European continent.

Continental Europe outside of Russian influence? no.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#367

Post by mytailorisrich »

pjc50 wrote: post #61
tristanj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French Guiana is not a colony, it is a region of France. People who live there have the same constitutional rights as anyone living in mainland France. It has the same status in France as Alaska does in the US.

It's a colony even if it's legally part of France. (Had to check: free movement does apply to Guianans, but in the other direction it's not part of Schengen)

France has only one citizenship, everyone holds the same French passport so everyone has the same freedom of movement within the EU.

It's not in Schengen, like most overseas territories in the EU, to limit illegal immigration into the EU (see Ceuta as well).

I don't thing the term "colony" holds. It is anachronic and refers to a system that no longer exists.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#368

Post by ben_w »

ericmay wrote: post #93
JohnTHaller wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is Russia's second violation of the Budapest Memorandum. We know Putin will simply ignore another treaty when he feels like. We also know the US under the current administration is "negotiating" in bad faith (via the president's son-in-law) and will do even less when the next treaty violation occurs.

No we don’t know that the current administration is negotiating in bad faith. That’s your opinion and one that doesn’t really reflect how the world of diplomacy and interactions between nation states work. Why would you waste time and money when any deal in which would be negotiated in bad faith requires Ukrainian participation? Second, yes the Budapest Memorandum was violated. Why didn’t the other parties do anythin…

> Second, yes the Budapest Memorandum was violated. Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States?

The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction.

> Here’s a better question though: why didn’t the EU do something when Russia violated it?

The EU isn't party to the Budapest Memorandum.

> Is your gear ready?

It is actively being sent, unlike US gear which appears to have stopped roughly with Trump taking over.

> Are you ready to deploy to the front lines?

We aren't asking you to deploy to the front lines of Ukraine. Why do you even think this has been asked of you?

> Why are 600 million Europeans asking 340 million Americans to defend them from 180 million Russians?

This is an entirely separate question to Ukraine.

About 500 million Europeans are living in a NATO state. For them, if war came to them (which it has not yet done so!), the answer is "Article 5". We're already wondering if the USA honour its obligations, so yet again the very fact you have even asked this question makes us trust the USA less.

It's almost like you think, as the Russians keep claiming, NATO was never really a mutual defence treaty, but a way for the USA to be stronger.

That said, a thought crosses my mind: If I were a Chinese or Russian propagandist, I'd get someone to do what you're doing now. Or, better yet, convince some actual Americans to do what you're doing now.

"Divide and conquer, baby. Isolate the big scary army from all their allies who are also their industrial suppliers and FOBs!"

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#369

Post by vladms »

randomNumber7 wrote: post #306
vladms wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are more expensive but the figures I have seen are 3x for Ariane 5 and 2x for Ariane 6 (source : https://spacenexus.us/guide/space-launch-cost-comparison ). Then, it depends on what you need to do. A 3x cost if you deploy a strategic constellation is fine. A 3x cost if you want to launch huge payloads for a Mars trip (I know costs were for LEO, just giving an example) is probably uncompetitive.

Any 2x or 3x cost for the same thing is uncompetitive in a free market.

Price is not the only characteristic of a product (hence the mention of "strategic constellation").

In a "free market" would you recommend on USA to rely only on a Chinese manufactured essential product for its military (or the reverse, or Europe on Russia, or etc.)?

I am not against great private offers (be it rockets/cloud/etc.). But there should also be some "local" capability for some strategic products, so that if the private providers encounter issues (crazy CEO, tariffs, export regulations, etc.) you are not left without any of that capability.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#370

Post by neuronic »

cookiewill wrote: post #338
pbkompasz wrote: post #274

Just for context, when Boeing completed the 747 Airbus wasn't even a thing. 5 decades later they have caught up in most categories and even surpassed in some. Who knows, maybe something similar will happen again?

Airbus did not come into existence out of nowhere. It is the result of merging some companies that had some ancestry going back to the time of aviation pioneers.

It's a posterboy project for the EU and for all its insane complexities and French people, it's working! I am watching Belugas land here in Hamburg almost every day :)
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