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Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

abc.net.au

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Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#261

Post by idiotsecant »

lenkite wrote: post #240
Wololooo wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go further with your reasoning... Why would anyone lend the US more...

> Go further with your reasoning... Why would anyone lend the US more... Because if you don't, you are abducted or killed or "regime changed" or sanctioned to famine-level poverty - all for "freedom & democracy". Kindly remember that the Corporate States of America has the world's most powerful military... well I suppose it is nowadays in the top #3.

It's hard to twist the definition of the term in such a way that the US doesn't have the most powerful military.

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#262

Post by idiotsecant »

epistasis wrote: post #145
anon84873628 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That said, it's not necessarily a great deal for the US middle class anymore, due to the Triffin Dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma This 2020 piece by Lyn Alden is a great explainer: https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/ (Not that I think anything Trump has done has helped the situation even accidentally.)

Nothing there explains why it's a bad deal for the middle class. The middle class actually benefits the most from this situation! More goods, more government services, etc. How much more? Just add up all the trade deficits, that's all benefit accrued almost entirely to the middle class.

So good for the middle class they're evaporating at record rates!

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#263

Post by rafterydj »

leonidasrup wrote: post #227
actionfromafar wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, until they run out of coal.

China has large coal reserves, enough for many decades. "China, the world’s largest coal consumer, has domestic reserves of coal to last the next 50 years, according to annual reserves data from the Ministry of Natural Resources cited by Bloomberg. At current rates of domestic production, China also has crude oil reserves that could last for at least 18 more years, according to the ministry" https://oilprice.com/Late…

Wow. Only enough reserves to be measured in decades? Once it's gone it's gone. Genuine Carboniferous coal, one day a thousand years from now, might be a rare museum item!

I have a habit of thinking about history in very long terms, and that just does not sit right with me. That kind of thinking (oh we have enough for decades, let it rip!) happens, and the decades pass, and time inevitably is less kind to the descendants of such decision makers.

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#264

Post by c0ndu17 »

spwa4 wrote: post #258
strken wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, the bond market tracks international central banks' confidence that this will continue to be true. If they lose some of that confidence, their stock of bonds moves from USD to RMB/EUR/JPY/AUD/CAD/SGD/etc.

True, except you're being way too easy on those other currencies. Currencies need to be issued by groups able to guarantee international trade, otherwise there's no point. RMB - maybe, but nobody sane trusts China to not immediately change priorities on a dime EUR - imho (much) less chance than RMB, but they're using a hack: of EUR is a massive entity and internally there's no choice. Literally not allowed (due to ta…

Pretty confident it’s going to be EUR, note how they dealt with Trump tariff’s shenanigans. Took it slowly, and decidedly, sure let the countries say words and what not, but at the end of the day it’s decided by the EU. Just one persons opinion.

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#265

Post by dismalaf »

crote wrote: post #224
dismalaf wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which do you choose? Yuan carries Chinese geopolitical risk, Yen, probably not enough of it in the world plus Japan keeps trying to devalue, Euro maybe, but there's plenty of geopolitical risk there with Russia on the doorstep and shifting politics... Plus if everyone doesn't choose the same it's less convenient.

Russia is going to have a very hard time directly attacking the Eurozone without also hitting NATO home soil - which through Article 5 would also pull in plenty of non-Euro countries, including the United States. Besides, shoveling never-ending piles of cash into the furnace of the War Machine doesn't seem to have hurt the dollar? As to shifting politics: The EU is famously extremely hard to move. The European Counci…

> Russia is going to have a very hard time directly attacking the Eurozone without also hitting NATO home soil - which through Article 5 would also pull in plenty of non-Euro countries, including the United States

Will it? The Russians blew up an ammunition depot in Czechia without consequences. A cruise missile hit Poland and it was swept under the rug. Numerous acts of sabotage and Europe's done nothing. Now a drone attack in Germany and they're again, responding extremely weakly.

The only rational takeaway is that NATO is weak. If Russia attacks Latvia will the US go to war? Not s chance.

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#266

Post by coldtea »

dismalaf wrote: post #246
coldtea wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make sound like we're stuck with it, but the franc and the sterling pound used to have a similar role for a few centuries each... these things change.

Didn't say we're stuck with it, just at this exact moment there's no obvious replacement. If China ever replaces Xi and the next generation takes a softer stance on a bunch of stuff it'll be a shoe in, but right now they're weirdly belligerent.

They're quite softer in all kinds of stuff. The US is run by an aggressive madman and neocon/MIC combo in comparison (tarrifs, trade blackmail, Greenland, straight of Hormuz, the list goes on).

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#267

Post by strken »

spwa4 wrote: post #258
strken wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, the bond market tracks international central banks' confidence that this will continue to be true. If they lose some of that confidence, their stock of bonds moves from USD to RMB/EUR/JPY/AUD/CAD/SGD/etc.

True, except you're being way too easy on those other currencies. Currencies need to be issued by groups able to guarantee international trade, otherwise there's no point. RMB - maybe, but nobody sane trusts China to not immediately change priorities on a dime EUR - imho (much) less chance than RMB, but they're using a hack: of EUR is a massive entity and internally there's no choice. Literally not allowed (due to ta…

I was going by foreign currency reserves, which feature CAD and AUD in much greater quantities than CHF. Also I swapped in SGD for GBP, whoops.

Global reserves continue to hold USD in greater quantities than anything else. A movement away from the USD still means a relative loss of faith in the US. If there's nobody who can guarantee trade then you still need to hold reserves, right? You just have to hold a broad and shallow pool rather than going deep on one currency.

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#268

Post by bitmasher9 »

leonidasrup wrote: post #225
bitmasher9 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure 100% sure, but I imagine the cost of transporting to Europe is probably higher than the cost of refining to the European standard.

Switzerland has 4 of the 15 biggest gold refineries in the world in 2026 https://vinodvsharma.com/top-15-biggest-gold-refineries-in-t...

Yeah, I know most of the gold that goes to Europe from the US usually gets refined in Switzerland.

I have no idea what portion of the total cost that is to move gold from US to Switzerland. I imagine it’s less than the insured carrier service.

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#269

Post by zem »

rafterydj wrote: post #263
leonidasrup wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has large coal reserves, enough for many decades. "China, the world’s largest coal consumer, has domestic reserves of coal to last the next 50 years, according to annual reserves data from the Ministry of Natural Resources cited by Bloomberg. At current rates of domestic production, China also has crude oil reserves that could last for at least 18 more years, according to the ministry" https://oilprice.com/Late…

Wow. Only enough reserves to be measured in decades? Once it's gone it's gone. Genuine Carboniferous coal, one day a thousand years from now, might be a rare museum item! I have a habit of thinking about history in very long terms, and that just does not sit right with me. That kind of thinking (oh we have enough for decades, let it rip!) happens, and the decades pass, and time inevitably is less kind to the descenda…

growing up (in the 70s/80s), the first time I was shocked at the exponential destructiveness of human civilisation was when I learnt that we had polluted the oceans. the second was when I found out that ubiquitous natural resources like oil could be completely consumed. I feel like either one would have been unthinkable even as late as 1900.

(incidentally the latest such shock was sometime this decade when I learnt that an aquifer could not only be depleted, but that that depletion would compact the soil so that it would thereafter be unable to hold water, and thus never (at least on our timescales) be able to be replenished. I think I'm still not over that!)

Re: Netherlands pulls gold out of the US

#270

Post by adrianN »

zem wrote: post #269
rafterydj wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Only enough reserves to be measured in decades? Once it's gone it's gone. Genuine Carboniferous coal, one day a thousand years from now, might be a rare museum item! I have a habit of thinking about history in very long terms, and that just does not sit right with me. That kind of thinking (oh we have enough for decades, let it rip!) happens, and the decades pass, and time inevitably is less kind to the descenda…

growing up (in the 70s/80s), the first time I was shocked at the exponential destructiveness of human civilisation was when I learnt that we had polluted the oceans . the second was when I found out that ubiquitous natural resources like oil could be completely consumed. I feel like either one would have been unthinkable even as late as 1900. (incidentally the latest such shock was sometime this decade when I learnt…

There is an interesting passage in Moby Dick where they talk about whether whaling could make whales go extinct, but the concern is brushed away as human hubris. How could humans completely destroy something that God created?
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