Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 98 posts

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#81

Post by happymellon »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #46
cryptopian wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse than that, driving can be a partially subconscious activity and people tend to drive at the speed that "feels" right. It's why the best approach to slowing motor vehicles in places with people walking is to physically design the road to feel uncomfortable driving too fast, rather than slap a 20mph sign on a wide straight road.

> It's why the best approach to slowing motor vehicles in places with people walking is to physically design the road to feel uncomfortable driving too fast, rather than slap a 20mph sign on a wide straight road. Unfortunately that doesn't facilitate bad people's need to stomp other people with the state and without bad people who want to stomp people with the state there wouldn't be enough people on the bandwagon to…

Narrow spaces using concrete and steel poles. Too fast will wipe out your vehicle rather than a person.

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#82

Post by mcv »

account42 wrote: post #71
preisschild wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In cities cars have no reason to exist. You can combine better scalable public transit (light rail, subways, trains) with bikes/scooters and you get best of both worlds. Have been living in one for years without a need for a car.

There are many things like moving furniture or even larger amounts of groceries that are infinitely harder without a car. And then there is also the question of the environment on that public transport. IME "good enough that complaints remain manageable" seems to be the target here unlike a car where you can have private entertainment and air conditioning (not to mention sufficient ventilation) to whatever level you…

You don't need to move furniture every week, so you can always rent a van for that. Using a car for the 500m to my nearest supermarket seems a bit silly, but these days our groceries are delivered to the front door.

All of this is a matter of how you design your cities. Some have been designed so you have no choice but to use a car, others have been designed so you don't need a car at all. I know you don't control the design of your city, but others do. They could be making different decisions.

> And even for relatively frequent public transit routes you end up wasting quite a bit of time waiting.

The same is true for busy car routes.

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#83

Post by mcv »

tasuki wrote: post #75
tcp_handshaker wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its ironic, because the biggest danger in Amsterdam are cyclists doing well over 60 inside town narrow streets.

> cyclists doing well over 60 inside town narrow streets I used to cycle and I don't think I could achieve 60 on flat ground like Amsterdam. That's very solid sprinting that even the best cyclists in the world can only achieve for short periods of time. On narrow Amsterdam streets with cobblestone? Impossible...

I'm fast. I've been clocked at over 40. 40 is crazy fast. Most cyclist go 15. The fast ones 20-25. The very fastest maybe 30-35. 60 is a wild exaggeration. That's what sprinters do in the Tour de France.

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#84

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

orwin wrote: post #73
tcp_handshaker wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its ironic, because the biggest danger in Amsterdam are cyclists doing well over 60 inside town narrow streets.

Going 60 you need to have a _really_ good bike and want to go that fast. I barely manage to keep 30 for more than 20 minutes, and I would consider myself an average cyclist on an above average bike.

You'd need a good bike and also be an elite cyclist/sprinter. I can usually manage 30kmh for an hour or so (providing there's a good tailwind and I'm going downhill), but the issue with going faster is the air resistance which is roughly proportional to the square of velocity (rolling resistance is roughly proportional to velocity so that becomes less important). Going twice as fast will mean quadrupling your power output.

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#85

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

buran77 wrote: post #43
maratc wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Street bumps are much more efficient in lowering speed than either "automated controls" or "manual controls". You (plus neighbours, probably) could petition your council to put one (or several) on your street.

The elegant way to implement such a speed limit is to have the driver do a "slalom" between things like trees or parking spots set alternatively between the two sides of the street, or green islands in the middle of the street. It forces a low driving speed without the discomfort and potential damage caused by speed bumps. Street bumps are a discomfort even for those who respect the speed limit, and sometimes for res…

Yes, the idea is to provide drivers with clues as to the relevant speed. Straight roads are usually designed to prioritise motorised vehicles and often need speed limits to try to control the drivers. By designing in chicanes and narrow sections, drivers don't usually have to be told to slow down. Also, having plenty of trees makes roads a lot nicer and you may even get free road bumps from their roots.

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#86

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

happymellon wrote: post #4
ghere wrote: post #3

The sign of an area run by old people

The sign of people that live in a city that understand how dangerous cars are in a shared space with people.

To be fair, the cars themselves aren't dangerous - it's the drivers.

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#87

Post by cryptopian »

happymellon wrote: post #81
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's why the best approach to slowing motor vehicles in places with people walking is to physically design the road to feel uncomfortable driving too fast, rather than slap a 20mph sign on a wide straight road. Unfortunately that doesn't facilitate bad people's need to stomp other people with the state and without bad people who want to stomp people with the state there wouldn't be enough people on the bandwagon to…

Narrow spaces using concrete and steel poles. Too fast will wipe out your vehicle rather than a person.

Doesn't even have to be anything that harsh. Narrow, twisty tree-lined lanes, speed humps, paved road surfaces that are louder inside the car

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#88

Post by piva00 »

yourusername wrote: post #79
piva00 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cyclist that can do sustained 60km/h in narrow streets is an elite athlete. Have you tried biking at 60km/h? Even on a very good bike with a gigantic gear ratio I don't think you'd manage to get close to it on flat ground. Quick edit: just to give you some figures, if the bike + cyclist weighs in total about 80kg the cyclist needs to sustain an output of about 1000W (on an aggressive position down on the drops) wit…

>A cyclist that can do sustained 60km/h in narrow streets is an elite athlete. Most "cyclists" are now actually drivers of light electric motorcycles. A $1500 Chinese ebike will do that easily.

It will do for about 15 minutes until the battery complete discharges.

Riding at 60km/h on a bike consumes a lot of power, aerodynamics are a bitch of a force.

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#89

Post by happymellon »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #86
happymellon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sign of people that live in a city that understand how dangerous cars are in a shared space with people.

To be fair, the cars themselves aren't dangerous - it's the drivers.

Someone running down the road shouting "broom broom" isn't that dangerous.

I'm pretty sure the car plays a part.

Re: Japan halves speed limit to 30km/h on all narrow city streets

#90

Post by preisschild »

account42 wrote: post #71
preisschild wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In cities cars have no reason to exist. You can combine better scalable public transit (light rail, subways, trains) with bikes/scooters and you get best of both worlds. Have been living in one for years without a need for a car.

There are many things like moving furniture or even larger amounts of groceries that are infinitely harder without a car. And then there is also the question of the environment on that public transport. IME "good enough that complaints remain manageable" seems to be the target here unlike a car where you can have private entertainment and air conditioning (not to mention sufficient ventilation) to whatever level you…

> moving furniture

Either rent a van or pay a moving company. Its not like you do this every week and it will still be cheaper if you do this every few years than paying for your own car.

> or even larger amounts of groceries that are infinitely harder without a car.

In high density cities this just doesnt exist. Grocery shops are at worst a few blocks away, you can just go more often or just use your own shopping cart (or equivalent)

> And then there is also the question of the environment on that public transport. IME "good enough that complaints remain manageable" seems to be the target here unlike a car where you can have private entertainment and air conditioning (not to mention sufficient ventilation) to whatever level you wish.

I get air conditioning in my cities bus/light rail/subways and its on a acceptable average level

And imo "entertainment" is a lot better in public transit where i can not only listen to music but also watch videos/read books/play games. When you are driving you shouldnt even be listening to an audio book since you could become distracted while operating your heavy machinery that can easily kill.

> And even for relatively frequent public transit routes you end up wasting quite a bit of time waiting.

Here subways/light rails comes every three to 10 minutes, this is not a problem.

Post reply on HN