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Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

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Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#231

Post by Timon3 »

PotatoPrime wrote: post #183
F3nd0 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the whole idea of ‘opt in’ is choosing to do something, the only reasonable interpretation of ‘opt in by default’ is that the default state requires you to make the choice yourself. However I try to bend my brain, sing the term ‘opt in’ for the exact opposite makes no sense whatsoever. Note that I’m not using English grammar as my argument; human language (and English especially) has plenty of exceptions and ex…

I read it as though he was trying to say '[you are] opt[ed] in by default'. Now granted, he did not say that, and I only reached that conclusion by the rest of this conversation, but I think to have meant that and said '... was now also opt-in by default...' isn't unreasonable. Just sharing since you mentioned you couldn't see how using that term for the opposite would make sense.

Even read this way, it doesn't make logical sense. It's a great example of newspeak - corporations know people use "opt-in" as a purchasing signal, so they're trying to redefine the word by abusing it enough times.

"Opting someone else in" is essentially the same category of error as "consenting for someone else". People can only consent for others in specific circumstances and even then only for specific people (e.g. legal guardians), trying to argue "but I consented for them!" in front of a judge usually ain't gonna work.

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#232

Post by teekert »

throwaway89201 wrote: post #69
teekert wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). Sorry, I have always thought that "opting in" is, "opting for the presented option" and opting out is "opting out of it", so opting out [of sharing prompts for training] is choosing to not share, but apparently I was wrong my whole life. I'm not a native speaker, and I think most people here (in my country) would interpret this the way I do? Wei…

> I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). You don't see "Allow the use of your interactions with Vibe to train Mistral’s AI models" at https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy ? And "Allow the use of your API calls to train Mistral’s AI models" at https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy ?

Mistral support just confirmed that the org-wide toggle was removed from the Team plan earlier this year and made exclusive to the enterprise tier. I bet that if you signed up earlier, they didn't remove it from your account, but it's not there for new customers. Which explains some of the confusion here.

Also explains that the community support in Discord insisted that the toggle should be there, moreover they told me the individual toggles on the user's pages wouldn't do anything because it defaulted to "off" for any organization, as per their docs until 2 days ago. But that changed.

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#233

Post by trainingonme »

teiferer wrote: post #57
Diti wrote: post #20

This gets posted literally moments before I was about to pay them after ditching Claude. Thank you! I hate data collection in paid products. I think I will be using Kagi Ultimate for the inference UI, so the data is somewhat anonymized before being collected.

> I hate data collection in paid products. You can opt out in this one.

You can, but you still have to opt-out. It'd be better if it was by default.

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#234

Post by KPGv2 »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #36
KPGv2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly because Mistral is a French-based company, so EU companies can cut the American umbilical cord a bit more.

EU companies can download GLM or Kimi-K3 and get way better performance, though? I don't see any case for using a Mistral model when much better open models exist.

Most people don't want a second job trying to figure out self-hosted AI stuff.

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#235

Post by KPGv2 »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #59
KPGv2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are "opting in to sharing your prompts for training", by default in this case. The English term for that is "opt out" not "opt in." To opt is to choose. If something is on by default, you have not opted in. You were forced in, and turning it off means you must opt out . (I.e., choose to be out.) normally I wouldn't care about a mistake like this, except that opt in/out are very important concepts in software de…

They said "opt in to training on prompts by default," which is coherent English and perfectly fine. The phrases "opt in" and "opt out" will always be contextual based on what is being opted, so it really falls to the reader to pay attention to that context. Please don't give English language advice as though you are an authority; there is not a rule of the English language that would make their usage unacceptable.

> They said "opt in to training on prompts by default," which is coherent English and perfectly fine

"Opt in" and "by default" are contradictory phrases. They mean literally the opposite of each other. The only reason it's coherent is that most native speakers will elect to believe "by default" was used correctly because it's the easier to use term.

> there is not a rule of the English language that would make their usage unacceptable

I think you're using emotionally inflammatory language, possibly unintentionally. no one is refusing to accept what they wrote.

That being said, the way they used "opt in" is categorically wrong. It's the opposite of the dictionary definition.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt-in

> The property of having to choose explicitly to join or permit something; a decision having the default option being exclusion or avoidance; used particularly with regard to mailing lists and advertising.

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#236

Post by KPGv2 »

F3nd0 wrote: post #121
brendoelfrendo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said "opt in to training on prompts by default," which is coherent English and perfectly fine. The phrases "opt in" and "opt out" will always be contextual based on what is being opted, so it really falls to the reader to pay attention to that context. Please don't give English language advice as though you are an authority; there is not a rule of the English language that would make their usage unacceptable.

Since the whole idea of ‘opt in’ is choosing to do something, the only reasonable interpretation of ‘opt in by default’ is that the default state requires you to make the choice yourself. However I try to bend my brain, sing the term ‘opt in’ for the exact opposite makes no sense whatsoever. Note that I’m not using English grammar as my argument; human language (and English especially) has plenty of exceptions and ex…

Here's the dictionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt-in

> The property of having to choose *explicitly* to join or permit something; a decision having the *default option being exclusion or avoidance*; used particularly with regard to mailing lists and advertising.

You're just using the term wrong. That's okay, I've used words wrong before, and it just means you've been presented an opportunity for learning a new fact.

But there's no argument to be had except with the dictionary.

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#237

Post by kevincox »

summarity wrote: post #4
teekert wrote: post #2

Context: After careful research our organization preferred a European partner with good central privacy controls. We landed on Mistral, after being disappointed that the Pro tier was opt-in to training on prompts by default we switched up to the Team tier which provides an organization dashboard with some relevant settings. As we did that Mistral changed these options and the Team tier was now also opt-in by default…

“Opt in by default” would mean that it is not enabled by default. Do you mean opt out?

Yes, I found this comment very hard to understand until I realised they were talking about it being opt-out with no setting to change it. (At first I thought it was opt-in by default, and the "by default" implies that there is a setting to change the opt-in/opt-out setting)

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#238

Post by therealpygon »

bee_rider wrote: post #103
rcxdude wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Edit: I should also say that it is a “known point of contention” where pro-privacy people have been pushing back on this phrasing. So, you have probably accidentally stumbled into an ongoing discussion, which is why some of the comments might be unexpectedly prickly. Yes, because people will say that something should be opt-in, meaning off by default, and then someone makes it on by default and says 'oh, it's opt-in…

I 100% agree that “opt-in by default” is bad and that “opted” in that sense is a bullshit incoherent phrase. Unfortunately this “opting as a thing that happens to you instead of a choice” idea has evidently been promoted well, so we have to expect that people will unknowingly use it.

“Opt-in” means to agree to something. If something is “opt-in by default”, it means that it is opt-out and someone is using weasel wording and contract inducements to force you into something you didn’t actually agree to. Any “disagreement” is just people trying to advocate for what they wished it meant.

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#239

Post by abhayaya »

teekert wrote: post #46
throwaway89201 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and at the same time seemed to have lost the ability to centrally disable training on prompts for your entire organization There is a toggle on https://admin.mistral.ai that allows you to disable training for both Vibe and Console/API for your entire organisation. And I'm not on the enterprise plan. I've disabled training the first time I created an account, and it has remained that way. You story is also very conf…

I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). Sorry, I have always thought that "opting in" is, "opting for the presented option" and opting out is "opting out of it", so opting out [of sharing prompts for training] is choosing to not share, but apparently I was wrong my whole life. I'm not a native speaker, and I think most people here (in my country) would interpret this the way I do? Wei…

Imho, legally, one should always be 'opted out' of 'forced mingling of your ideas' without deliberately opting in. Same as for advertising, click-through tracking, and sociopsycho/marketing metrics. Like the old firewall rule (easier to handle opt-in/out that way than firewalls; like, how many people can run a firewall that way now?). Users should have it right in front of their face when they install something or register, too, not hidden among options. It might take the user five or ten more minutes to get to use the app but worth it.

Re: Can I opt out of my input or output data being used for training?

#240

Post by gitgud »

20k wrote: post #156
gitgud wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have an enterprise contract with them, the legal protections for the consumer is much higher… is what I’ve been told anyway

It isn't, in both cases you're protected by exactly the same legal system

Same legal system, but an OpenAI enterprise contract is not the same as a ChatGPT pro subscription... The terms of service agreement would be quite different
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