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Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

theguardian.com

221–230 of 255 posts

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#221
post #183
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's sort of what bothered me the most at the time. It seemed like the argument was that it was "emotional" or something to keep Pluto a planet when there might be so many of them. But I never understood why it was less "emotional" to insist that a planet be a certain size or that there should be a certain number of planets.

It is emotional reasoning to want Pluto to be an exception to an otherwise universal definition, because the reason for the exception are the emotions of some people . Picking any arbitrary generic definition and applying it universally is less emotional, because there is no emotional reasoning necessary to explain why any object is or isn't a planet.

One of the parts that makes people emotional is that they’re plainly being lied to about the premise of needing a universal definition.

Scientists just ignore the rule about neighborhoods at times for convenience — how else would you claim to have found an “exoplanet” if you cannot also rule out “exo-dwarf-planets” in its neighborhood?

People can tell when a rule was added for a specific reason that the authors don’t want to say outright. It’s a sort of appeal to authority rather than a scientific claim. That’s dishonest, and people push back when authorities are dishonest with them.

We don’t make the rules, this is just what a planet is now. Wait, did you say we do make the rules? No, of course we didn’t vote on what our scientific result should be… that would be unscientific. We ARE science.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#222

The main objection to calling Pluto a planet appears to be that if Pluto is a planet then up to about 200 other objects should also be called planets, that the list would be of unknown size and regularly changing. That's an objection? No, that's a benefit! I think it'd be awesome to be regularly discovering new planets.

"Discovering new planets" only has the cachet it does because there are so few of them, and they are individually so significant. It would quickly lose that significance if there were hundreds of them. To be precise, it would acquire exactly the significance it actually deserves, but having diluted the meaning of "planet" as applied to the big eight in the process. We would soon want another name for the originals to…

With or without the IAU definition, you still end up with innumerable planets.

Scientists regularly claim to have found planets orbiting other stars. They do this even though they have no way to verify that their neighborhoods have been cleared.

And yes, you can decide that some particular things are special. That’s why culture is a big part of this. Many people consider Pluto to be special even though they are well aware that it’s not the only one out there, and that’s why they refer to it as a planet.

The idea that there would be too many planets isn’t really a problem that needed solving. Would we start classifying every dinosaur as either a T-Rex or a triceratops because otherwise there would be too many dinosaurs? It’s plainly ridiculous.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aye, but what does Pluto orbit, and what does the Moon orbit?

In order to be defined as a planet, an object needs to meet 3 criteria: - Orbits a star (Pluto does and I assume that's what you were asking about) - The object has enough mass to pull itself into a sphere (meets this criteria) - The object has enough gravity to have cleared its nearby orbit of debris and other objects Neither Pluto nor Eris qualify for a planet because of that last one and, like I mentioned, the Moo…

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Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aye, but what does Pluto orbit, and what does the Moon orbit?

In order to be defined as a planet, an object needs to meet 3 criteria: - Orbits a star (Pluto does and I assume that's what you were asking about) - The object has enough mass to pull itself into a sphere (meets this criteria) - The object has enough gravity to have cleared its nearby orbit of debris and other objects Neither Pluto nor Eris qualify for a planet because of that last one and, like I mentioned, the Moo…

You’re describing the planets that are conformant to the 2006-IAU specification.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#225

My favorite nonfiction book in years is "Storia della pasta in dieci piatti" by Luca Cesari. The signature chapter explores the day in 2015 when celebrity chef Carlo Cracco stated on television that a clove of garlic is an ingredient that can go into amatriciana. Cesari explores the absurdity of the resulting uproar, given the actual history of the dish. People like to make rules. Leave them be in their tree houses,…

This is hardly on par in terms of stupidity, but one thing you learn from flat-earthers is that humans love disagreeing with a consensus. Nothing make a certain type of person feel smarter than disagreeing with everyone. If you say the sky is blue I'm going to say it's green because I'm so smart.

Wait until you meet the people who like to feel powerful by affiliating with certain groups and movements.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a definition. That is not a matter of scientific inquiry or fact, the definition is whatever people want it to be. You're belittling people for ignoring scientific evidence, but there's no scientific evidence to ignore, and cannot be.

I agree with you. However that doesn't explain why people get so upset about a definition being changed - seems just as silly.

They get upset when others try to exert control over them for making their own informed choices.

It’s plainly un-American to have speech governed by a committee. Thankfully, the IAU has no authority over me. Why won’t people leave me alone over my decision to not tether my own positions about how I use my own native language to the whims of the IAU? It’s as if we have thoughtcrimes now, with vigilante irritators at the ready.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#227
post #150

The "battle" for Pluto is an interesting case study in indoctrination. A few generations of children grew up being taught a specific fact, saw it in textbooks, learned mnemonics about it, had memorable cartoon characters named after it, and then one day they were told – with sound reasoning and plenty of scientific evidence – that they should now update their views on the topic. You would think this group of well edu…

The thing is, there is no real evidence to back up the classification. The assignment between words and objects is arbitrary. A consistent definition for "planet" can be given and immediately after define the Solar System as being comprised of nine planets, with the understanding that a "planet" and a "planet of the Solar System" are similar but distinct concepts. The same is already done in biology with paraphyletic…

Yep, it’s a word. We can make more of them. We use them differently depending on the context. It’s strange that armchair scientists seem unable to understand how words work. They seem to use words fine enough? But they struggle with the abstract concept of what words are and how their meaning comes from how they are used rather than from committees.

I vote we cut science funding for universities since the humanities are clearly going through difficult times.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#228

The actual problem here is weirdly aggressive nerds who are incapable of nuance, and insist that an astronomical classification (Pluto is not a planet by the IAU definition) should be used in non-astronomical contexts. Historically and culturally, Pluto is considered a planet. An IAU classification shouldn't be used to try and retroactively change that, because the IAU does not have control over history and culture.…

> Historically and culturally, Pluto is considered a planet. A very brief period of history. Give it 50 years and the number of people who will call it a planet will be close to 0. Let's not overstate Pluto's significance in culture. People call it a planet only because that's what they were taught in school. Not because of other (very few) cultural references. As it has been dropped from the curriculum, so shall it…

The meaning of a word comes from how its speakers use it.

When people stop referring to Pluto as a planet, it will cease to be one.

Until then, we are living in a reality in which Pluto both is a planet and is not a planet, depending on the context.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#229
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Scientists really should have made up their own categories instead of using our words." If they could do it all over again probably most of them would. The sciences all grew organically too. Some of these things like "berries" aren't even just the product of one reclassification, they're the product of several over the course of decades or centuries, which is how they get so common-sense silly over time.

We had the perfect opportunity to introduce new names when the IAU created the "dwarf planet" classification in 2006. That was literally the perfect time to do it all over.

Although there may have been a chance from an opportunism standpoint, the wisdom needed to do that well was clearly absent.

Re: Since it was stripped of planetary status, Pluto’s defenders have been fighting

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A geocentric model is observably incorrect. The word “planet” is neither true nor false. Different people use it to refer to different things. Kind of like the word “tree.” Some things are trees and some things are not — and it really depends on whom you ask and when you ask them. Most people are able to get along and allow people to refer to whatever trees they want to, because it’s a free country and it really does…

> because it’s a free country and it really doesn’t make sense to try to control other people over something like that No one is trying to control you by defining what words mean. In fact, you're still fully free to call anything you like whatever you want. You risk being misunderstood in certain contexts or assumed to be ignorant in others, but no one will stop you. My guess is that what you personally call a planet…

A mention of “the planet Pluto” carries risk that you will be derailed by people who think they are very scientific but in fact are just excited to be able to correct someone.

My language has become politicized. Either I go with the flow and surrender something about my own language, or I risk getting called out or misunderstood as being incorrect if I continue.

It’s easier to let them think they corrected you than to explain your position. People believing that correcting others over superficial word choices counts as being scientific… it’s disappointing.

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