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Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

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Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#21

Post by stefan_ »

The systems jamming in Hormuz and Ukraine aren't exactly cheap and low powered, nor are those used by the US military in one of their many jamming exercises every year. Cheap GPS jammers fit in a cigarette lighter and are used by truckers who don't want their boss snooping on them, but they don't quite threaten aviation.

That aside, you don't need to give up on GPS just yet. As expensive as airplanes are, there is no reason not to have at least 8 element CRPA receivers in them. Mostly a military niche product in the past they are rapidly proliferating, and most fuselages make for a great ground plane.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#22

Post by butvacuum »

teeray wrote: post #7
budman1 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LORAN can be jammed.

Well certainly, no one thing is impervious. But if you have GPS, LORAN, VORs, NDBs, astronavigation, etc. you have many more options at your disposal and present a much more complex attack target.

It's 2026: we have more ways to defeat jamming, or make it irrelevant, at unit costs trivial for commercial and most private applications. 1) atomic clocks can be smaller than a closed fist and allow GPS to work with 3 satalites with ocassional drops to 2. 2) the same clocks can be used to filter out radio sources from the wrong direction. 3) star navigation (commercial is often above weather, most weather is clear in some IR bands) 4) Terain following (easy to store maps now) 5) Inertial. 6) magnetic

When combined it is very hard to break the position fix. I expect the issue with the system is it's a military tech. with all it's that'll associated legal problems. After all. it'd bypass most the protections built into GPS modules.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#23

Post by toomuchtodo »

jacquesm wrote: post #16
bronco21016 wrote: post #9

Whats really sad for aviation is there was already an extensive network of ground based navaids. As GPS has proliferated, they've slowly been decommissioned as they age out to save on cost. I'm specifically referring to VORs which provide azimuth and range to station. GPS is fantastic and as a primary source everyone loves the benefits it brings. However, in a century of aviation, everyone has kinda sorted out that y…

And LORAN. But it may make a come-back. GPS signals are just incredibly weak so it takes next to nothing to drown them out, easier still if you are above the receiver.

I would be curious on and interested in guidance from a GNSS expert on what the risk profile is when you're using jam resistant frequencies with a multi GNSS constellation chipset (GPS, Galileo, BeiDou), WAAS (GNSS corrections received via satellite), and when close enough to airports that support it, LAAS (GNSS corrections broadcast from airports). Follow up questions would be what countermeasures are available to bolster GNSS reliability during critical phases of flight (takeoff and landing), as well as how cellular tower networks could be used as distributed sensor fabrics for constantly monitoring for and triangulate GNSS jamming using SDR (or perhaps start with a handful of GNSS reference monitoring stations at major airports for this monitoring).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49186101

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49184484

GPSJam: Daily maps of possible GPS interference - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37868106 - October 2023 (89 comments)

GPSJam: Daily Maps of GPS Interference - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32245346 - July 2022 (82 comments)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmitter_hunting | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-range_multilateration | https://www.arrl.org/direction-finding

https://geodesy.noaa.gov/CORS/ | https://arcg.is/18fWq8

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#24

Post by [deleted] »

Hizonner wrote: post #19
djoldman wrote: post #12

No worries in the long run; similar to the "energy crisis," new inventions and technology will mitigate the issue: Quantum Compass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_compass Also see: https://www.sandboxaq.com/post/sandboxaq-and-acubed-achieve-...

I'm sorry, but a multi-kilogram (at a guess), five-figure-priced (at a conservative guess) device with kilometer-scale error (per their actual press release) is not a substitute for a GPS. And you probably can't improve on many of those specs no matter how much "inventing" you do. There's just not that much information in magnetic fields, especially if you don't spend an infeasible amount of money on keeping maps up…

[deleted]

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#25

Post by jshier »

bronco21016 wrote: post #9

Whats really sad for aviation is there was already an extensive network of ground based navaids. As GPS has proliferated, they've slowly been decommissioned as they age out to save on cost. I'm specifically referring to VORs which provide azimuth and range to station. GPS is fantastic and as a primary source everyone loves the benefits it brings. However, in a century of aviation, everyone has kinda sorted out that y…

Seems like we'd need a modern version that's less susceptible to jamming, otherwise aren't we just replacing one jammable service with another?

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#26

Post by thenthenthen »

eternityforest wrote: post #5

Is there a reliable app to detect these without using excessive amounts of battery?

Better use a software defined radio like hackrf or a more dedicated gps thingy, esp32 with gps addon and some machine learning? (‘Some’ doing a lot of heavy lifting here)

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#27

Post by sokoloff »

bronco21016 wrote: post #9

Whats really sad for aviation is there was already an extensive network of ground based navaids. As GPS has proliferated, they've slowly been decommissioned as they age out to save on cost. I'm specifically referring to VORs which provide azimuth and range to station. GPS is fantastic and as a primary source everyone loves the benefits it brings. However, in a century of aviation, everyone has kinda sorted out that y…

All VORs provide a radial that you’re on. Not all provide a distance to the station. VOR/DME or VORTACs provide both. Plain VORs do not.

As more and more are decommissioned, the percentage that support distance-measuring goes up, as the ones being decommissioned are more likely to be the less-useful ones, which are less likely to have supported DME in the first place. So most remaining ones support both, but it’s not assured without checking.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#28

Post by vablings »

djoldman wrote: post #12

No worries in the long run; similar to the "energy crisis," new inventions and technology will mitigate the issue: Quantum Compass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_compass Also see: https://www.sandboxaq.com/post/sandboxaq-and-acubed-achieve-...

The magnetic approach is very interesting. I can't imagine it would ever be reliable enough for a primary instrument since its susceptible to solar weather and certain regions with more geological activity.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#29

Post by lstodd »

cyberax wrote: post #15
budman1 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LORAN can be jammed.

Not really. It uses 2MHz band, with the wavelength of around 160m. This means that it's easy to receive via a ferrite bar antenna but hard to transmit. You need an antenna of at least around 40m size for that to be efficient.

Even a 160m guy-wire tower is cheap. 40m.. my friend installed 32m one just to have better internets, not exactly out of pocket cash, but nothing compared to say swapping a car.

Re: Cheap GPS jammers are filling the world with navigation dead zones

#30

Post by wbl »

butvacuum wrote: post #22
teeray wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well certainly, no one thing is impervious. But if you have GPS, LORAN, VORs, NDBs, astronavigation, etc. you have many more options at your disposal and present a much more complex attack target.

It's 2026: we have more ways to defeat jamming, or make it irrelevant, at unit costs trivial for commercial and most private applications. 1) atomic clocks can be smaller than a closed fist and allow GPS to work with 3 satalites with ocassional drops to 2. 2) the same clocks can be used to filter out radio sources from the wrong direction. 3) star navigation (commercial is often above weather, most weather is clear i…

And the military has JDAM with HOJ as a solution for jamming
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