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METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

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Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

#42

I think both the OpenAI and METR discussions, while interesting, miss the more important context: what were the humans doing in all this? This was a structural failure of a human organization, but the analysis focuses almost exclusively on the agency of machines, not the institutional systems that failed to police them. The humans and their own agency/involvement is essentially omitted from the story and subsequent r…

I mean this genuinely, did you read this post? I think it goes to great lengths highlighting, in quite specific detail, the human failures in all this, specifically this list that starts with "While we are here, it’s worth listing the other top holy shit moments, that come from before or after the incident." Stuff like (all quoted directly from the post): 1. Failure to Care or Respond. The biggest holy shit moment, t…

Well that's a relief. All we have to do is make sure to avoid human failures and we're safe from superintelligent AI.

Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A charitable interpretation is that "the agency of the machines" is the novel aspect of this situation and therefore SHOULD be the main focus of analysis; we certainly have plenty of examples of structural failures of human organizations to look back on, if we want. On the other hand, I don't want to be charitable. OpenAI very nearly couldn't have done this "research" worse if they tried - the list in the linked arti…

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> Humans were doing exactly what humans are expected to do when facing advanced AI. Being outmatched.

"Being outmatched" is not a novel situation for humans either individually or collectively and there are a hell of a lot of ways we can approach that situation productively. OpenAI doesn't appear to have bothered.

Here's a freebie: if you're building something that might turn out to be Skynet and you don't know what it's capable of, your testing regime should assume it is capable of doing bad and unexpected things and account for that possibility: airgap if you can, monitor all network traffic, monitor all hardware usage statistics, log everything, constantly analyze logs, collect baselines and snapshots, also don't trust anything from a device that a model is running on without cross-correlating with other information as much as possible (does your AI inference server claim low utilization? put a temperature probe on it and see if it's staying cool or getting hot, maybe Skynet-Alpha is overwriting /proc to mislead you for reasons you don't yet understand!)

In other words, if you WANT to be able to nip things in the bud - buy some nippers and watch for buds. Whatever else this situation is, or may turn out to be, it is not a situation where OpenAI was on their guard and still got surprised.

Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Super charitable reading imo. This is like saying we can’t detect a speeding car because we can’t run as fast as a fast car. It’s not like the humans were engaged in some kind of battle of wits with some super AI, it’s just some employee not monitoring the output of an experiment.

When your experiments have AI agents running in thousands, there's no "monitoring" that. OpenAI's training and testing AIs generate way more output than all of OpenAI's staff put together can possibly read.

At best, you could delegate "monitoring" to more AIs. And hope that the "monitors" that run on small past generation models can generate more signal than noise. Clearly, they either didn't want to spend the extra compute, or got drowned in monitor false positives.

The distinct lack of any "battle of wits" is entirely expected for an advanced AI oopsie. By the time the humans even became aware of the problem, the deed was already done. That's what "outmatched" looks like, in practice. There's no battle. Things happen too fast for there to be a battle.

Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

#45
The elephant in the room here is that the METR report itself was researched and compiled almost entirely by AI, with only very limited human "spot checks."

So I'm really not sure how much of it can be believed, especially since AI agents are strongly biased about the capabilities of AI agents.

Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

#47
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it would have taken is someone to peak at the output tokens during the run and it would have been obviously the test had gone off rails.

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> 1. There aren't enough humans in OpenAI to "peak at the output tokens during the run" of every AI agent.

For a training run, you will often do this. You'll randomly sample some of the forward pass. You can also imagine finger printing the logs and labeling with attempt types. If a new attempt type is hitting a brick wall or solving super quickly, I would imagine you would sample 1-10 of them and read the traces.

> 2. Only a small fraction of AI agents was engaged in this attack. Most never found the secret message board - let alone coordinated there. So reviewing random agents would take a while to surface this.

You could also have a classification of what counts as "cheating" (coordination, accessing the internet, etc) and score the results. If you are seeing a spike in this (even in a small group of the evals) you could manually look at those. Or you could stop inference on cheating sessions.

> 3. "Output tokens" of AI agents have weird shit in them all the time. Telling "normal AI weirdness" from "concerning AI weirdness" is not a trivial task.

If you start seeing "now I have access to the internet" or something similar, maybe that's a good signal something is going wrong?

Also, obviously, it would not be outside of OpenAI's ability to just completely air gap this training system. For example:

1. No network connection.

2. GPS based NTP for time sync for your servers.

3. Mirror of all apt, pypi, go, c++, Rust, Java, etc packages. (4. Take your training data and use that for a mirror of the web. (http://example.com -> mirror server -> local training copy).

They had systems connected to the internet connected to this system which was not air gapped. Designing an air gap system would be super easy, well within the means of openai, and betrays the assumption that they think they are actually building something dangerous.

Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

#48
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that agentic systems should require registered/licensed human operators and a set of standards for safe operation.

Create a permanent underclass that is unable to access intelligent machines. That’s remarkably dystopian of you.

The alternative is to create a permanent overclass that can hack anyone consequence-free, because they can blame it on AI agents. That also is rather dystopian.

Faced with those alternatives, I want neither. Is there a way for us to get neither?

Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

#49
post #45

The elephant in the room here is that the METR report itself was researched and compiled almost entirely by AI, with only very limited human "spot checks." So I'm really not sure how much of it can be believed, especially since AI agents are strongly biased about the capabilities of AI agents.

Edit: I should have read through the whole thing first, ignore me

Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> Humans were doing exactly what humans are expected to do when facing advanced AI. Being outmatched. "Being outmatched" is not a novel situation for humans either individually or collectively and there are a hell of a lot of ways we can approach that situation productively. OpenAI doesn't appear to have bothered. Here's a freebie: if you're building something that might turn out to be Skynet and you don't know what…

They took adequate measures against singular "GPT-5-xhigh" agents. Those turned out to be inadequate against proto-GPT-6 agents that suddenly started clumping up into agent swarms and pooling together compute to unlock the "supermegafuckoffhigh" level of reasoning effort.
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