I think both the OpenAI and METR discussions, while interesting, miss the more important context: what were the humans doing in all this? This was a structural failure of a human organization, but the analysis focuses almost exclusively on the agency of machines, not the institutional systems that failed to police them. The humans and their own agency/involvement is essentially omitted from the story and subsequent r…
A charitable interpretation is that "the agency of the machines" is the novel aspect of this situation and therefore SHOULD be the main focus of analysis; we certainly have plenty of examples of structural failures of human organizations to look back on, if we want. On the other hand, I don't want to be charitable. OpenAI very nearly couldn't have done this "research" worse if they tried - the list in the linked arti…
METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
21–30 of 243 posts
Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe that agentic systems should require registered/licensed human operators and a set of standards for safe operation.
As someone who read Milton Friedman to quite disliking professional licensing, this strikes me as a real US perspective (Louisiana florists and hair braiders come to mind). Plain old US tort law should do the trick. In the same direction of your idea though: Why don’t the token factories have risk management and compliance departments? Multibillion dollar firms that stand to lose every penny if they hack and destroy…
Difficulty: these companies are run by people (many of whom also read Milton Friedman) and who have participated in the regulatory capture of the justice system. They've convinced lawmakers to put limits on damages. They've put arbitration clauses in their ToS. They've got well-funded legal departments that can outlast a person who has to pay out-of-pocket for a legal team just by filing motions to delay proceedings. Sometimes they'll just file SLAPP suits against people they don't like.
If tort law is to be a remedy, then average people have to feel like there's a chance the remedy will go their way. To make that a reality will take several major reforms at the local, state and federal level that the people with money absolutely will not tolerate.
Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe that agentic systems should require registered/licensed human operators and a set of standards for safe operation.
As someone who read Milton Friedman to quite disliking professional licensing, this strikes me as a real US perspective (Louisiana florists and hair braiders come to mind). Plain old US tort law should do the trick. In the same direction of your idea though: Why don’t the token factories have risk management and compliance departments? Multibillion dollar firms that stand to lose every penny if they hack and destroy…
Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#24Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#25No air gap, no data diodes, no visibility... OpenAI should fire lots of people over this. HF should sue them. This is pure negligence.
Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#26I think both the OpenAI and METR discussions, while interesting, miss the more important context: what were the humans doing in all this? This was a structural failure of a human organization, but the analysis focuses almost exclusively on the agency of machines, not the institutional systems that failed to police them. The humans and their own agency/involvement is essentially omitted from the story and subsequent r…
I believe that agentic systems should require registered/licensed human operators and a set of standards for safe operation.
Registering and getting a license to use an LLM? I can run these things on my local computer. Nothing good comes from trying to force registration and licensing other than taking away a lot of our freedoms and eliminating privacy all over.
Anyone with bad intentions will just VPN to another country to download the weights and run it locally, or use a compute provider in another country. That leaves the rest of us having to go through these performative registration and licensing hoops to do our basic work.
I also don’t see how open weight models would be compatible with a requirement to license and register, unless you believe we need to start requiring licensing and registration for things we do in private on our own computers?
Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#27I think both the OpenAI and METR discussions, while interesting, miss the more important context: what were the humans doing in all this? This was a structural failure of a human organization, but the analysis focuses almost exclusively on the agency of machines, not the institutional systems that failed to police them. The humans and their own agency/involvement is essentially omitted from the story and subsequent r…
I believe that agentic systems should require registered/licensed human operators and a set of standards for safe operation.
Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
This writeup emphasizes the many, profound human failures that led to this, at the time, and continuing to the present day.
Can you point out where? Looking at the METR report, the only place I see discussion of humans being involved in the sequence of events is two short paragraphs on page 30 where a security investigation into the artifactory issues led to a pause before ExploitGym experiments were resumed. There's no deeper analysis on what was found during that investigation, nor why training was resumed even though the issues weren't…
1. Failure to Care or Respond. The biggest holy shit moment, to me, remains that OpenAI on multiple occasions had teams that found out about the message board, knew that agents were in communication, and they disregarded this. The first known warning was in late May. The warning on June 27 was unambiguous. “Responders investigated and linked the observed internal activity to an ExploitGym evaluation using Artifactory as an improvised message board and a network pivot. At this time, the on-call response staff advised that stopping the evaluation run was not required.”
2. Failure to Monitor. The entire time, there was almost no monitoring of the situation, of what these AIs were up to. That’s how this was not caught.
3. Failures of Infrastructure. OpenAI failed at delivering even basic software security, in numerous ways. One example is the models all having access to the same Artifactory instance. There were also other severe failures. Nor did OpenAI seem to be properly testing for such failures.
4. Failures of Alignment. The biggest failure, the one that counts in the end, was that the models were severely misaligned, and I don’t think they appreciate why.
5. Failures of Attribution. OpenAI’s post-mortem essentially blames events on a real and important series of prosaic failures. But solving that won’t get it done.
6. Failures of Environments and Data. Prosaic failures in the RL pipeline absolutely did contribute to this, especially impossible tasks. This is ubiquitous, all of this is always rushed, as Utah Teapot explained this week.
7. Failures of Decision Making. OpenAI’s post mortem does not ask the question of how Mistakes Were Made, at various points.
8. Failures of Culture. None of this would be possible, let alone all of it, without OpenAI having experienced profound failures of safety culture. I see OpenAI responding to some other aspects with swift action, but no sign on this front.
Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe that agentic systems should require registered/licensed human operators and a set of standards for safe operation.
> I believe that agentic systems should require registered/licensed human operators Registering and getting a license to use an LLM? I can run these things on my local computer. Nothing good comes from trying to force registration and licensing other than taking away a lot of our freedoms and eliminating privacy all over. Anyone with bad intentions will just VPN to another country to download the weights and run it l…
A registration system would be more for tracing back agents to people, but I agree that is very difficult to actually enforce as a system.
Re: METR and Redwood Offer Holy %^ Postmortem of the HuggingFace Hack
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
A charitable interpretation is that "the agency of the machines" is the novel aspect of this situation and therefore SHOULD be the main focus of analysis; we certainly have plenty of examples of structural failures of human organizations to look back on, if we want. On the other hand, I don't want to be charitable. OpenAI very nearly couldn't have done this "research" worse if they tried - the list in the linked arti…
[flagged]