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Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

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381–388 of 388 posts

Re: Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start in the middle, where you say I wrote "When you have digitally modeled a brain such that the model responds to its inputs as a brain does, then you have built a brain." What I actually wrote was this: "Then, presumably, you will also hold that when you have digitally modeled a brain such that the model responds to its inputs as a brain does, then you have built a brain." This has to be read in the context…

Thanks for the reply. And I didn't mean to quote you out of context. The reason I brought up the enigma machine's hardware is to illustrate there is a difference between the physical machine and the abstract program that it can be observed to implement. However the machine can be used for more than that, for example I could use it as a footrest, or I could dissemble it's parts and use it to build a bomb. I could simu…

I think there is an important distinction here that you are missing. The principle that a simulation is not the thing being simulated is true in general, but it cannot be used to justify the claim that there can be no equivalences between a simulation and the thing being simulated. Indeed, if this were the case, then the word 'simulation' would have no meaning, as it is precisely the existence of some equivalences that justify calling X a simulation of Y.

Furthermore, there is an important class of simulations that are important generally and very relevant here, and it is those where the equivalence is in the generation and transformation of information. When X simulates Y in this regard, and what matters (in whatever it is that makes Y interesting or important to us) is the information generated and/or transformed by it, then we can indeed substitute X for Y. So, in the Enigma machine example, would you argue that the output of a physical Enigma machine when it encodes a given text is not the same as the output from an equivalently set-up Enigma machine simulation encoding the same message?

As the text of the two outputs would be identical, I will assume you will allow that in this case, the simulation is performing the same function as the physical machine. Now suppose someone comes along and says "That can't be right! You can use the physical machine as a footrest, but not the simulation, so the Enigma simulation cannot substitute for the physical machine as a communications-security device."

Would you be persuaded that this argument is sound when applied in this case? If you think it is, then I do not think we can discuss this issue any further, but if not, then would you be any more persuaded by this argument: "That can't be right! A simulated rainstorm will not get you wet, so the Enigma simulation cannot substitute for the physical machine as a communications-security device?"

If you think the latter is sound while the latter is not, then I would be really interested in understanding why you would think that. If you think the latter is unsound, then you are in complete agreement with the whole point of my original post in this thread: arguments like "simulated rain does not get you wet" are useless against the simulation argument.

This does not establish that a sufficiently-accurate simulation of a brain could have a mind, of course, and while I think it would, I do not claim to know it would, and it would take more than the absence of conclusive proof in this matter to persuade me that it is implausible. In particular, I am familiar with all the widely-made arguments in that direction, and not only do I think they are defeasible, I think that the philosophical approach of "going metaphysical" is unlikely to succeed; if nothing else, we have been doing this for centuries, if not millennia, and nothing like a broad consensus has emerged from it (just look at the SEP Qualia entry [1], for example) - but that discussion goes far beyond what can be usefully debated in a website comments section.

[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/

Re: Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so?

A corollary of causal exclusion is that two causally identical systems have identical explanations for identical physical events. If you posit some property of a substrate purported to be relevant for consciousness, it will either have a causal influence or non-causal influence. Given causal closure, any causal influence is explained by prior physical events, thus bypassing any relevance of this special property (or…

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Re: Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

#383
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many, many places have tried giving money to have kids. Many. Thst never works. It's not about money. It's about biology, likely microplastics acting as hormone inhibitors. Sex drive and reproductive drive are not the same.

It's almost always about the money. Some studies have shown something as simple as free car seats can influence fertility rates. We know next to nothing about microplastics - pseudoscience can wait at the door.

The car seat thing is about how people don't have kids because they'd need to have a car that can fit 2-3-4 car seats, which is a gigantic, very expensive car.

Car seat requirements prevent childbearing != giving people car seats induces childbearing

Re: Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really the only live option once the issues are properly understood. Causal closure: a physical event is explanatorily exhausted by prior physical events. Causal exclusion: if physical properties fully cause/explain everything we say and do about consciousness, i.e. our behavior purported to be about consciousness, then consciousness cannot be distinct from the physical behavior and also be a cause of that behav…

It's a massive leap to go from consciousness must be causally integrated with physical brain activity to consciousness is exhausted by an abstract functional description of that activity . At best you could establish that consciousness cannot be an additional, independent cause outside the physical causal order.

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Re: Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

#385
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's another round of "humans must be special, right?" The author comes close to admitting this: "As intelligent, social entities, we decide (or, to some degree, our evolutionary history has decided for us) which other entities we regard as having inner lives and being worthy of care." Then he works backwards from that towards a definition of consciousness that makes humans special. AI forces us to confront an issue…

Humans are special in that we have achieved more than any other species on this planet in every aspect you can experience. That does not mean that most people are smart or that they are utilizing their potential. LLMs, as they are currently marketed, are not AI as most people would define it. Without aggressive marketing no-one would refer to them as "AI". LLMs are currently still dumber than most animals or insects.…

"achieved more" what? Achieved more things that humans care about? I think ants have probably achieved more things that ants care about.

Re: Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A corollary of causal exclusion is that two causally identical systems have identical explanations for identical physical events. If you posit some property of a substrate purported to be relevant for consciousness, it will either have a causal influence or non-causal influence. Given causal closure, any causal influence is explained by prior physical events, thus bypassing any relevance of this special property (or…

You said “Given causal closure, any causal influence is explained by prior physical events, thus bypassing any relevance of this special property.” That does not follow. A property being physically caused does not make it causally irrelevant. For example, a wire’s conductivity is produced by its physical microstructure. Its conductivity helps explain why current flows through it. The fact that the conductivity itself…

>You said “Given causal closure, any causal influence is explained by prior physical events, thus bypassing any relevance of this special property.”

You're taking the sentence out of context and missing the work it is doing. Given some special property, if it doesn't have causal influence, then it is explanatorily impotent. If it does have causal influence then it is just a standard physical property subject to laws and such, i.e. non-special.

> For example, a wire’s conductivity is produced by its physical microstructure. Its conductivity helps explain why current flows through it. The fact that the conductivity itself has a physical explanation does not “bypass” its relevance.

Yes, conductivity is just a physical property (in my quote you left out the parenthetical about being identical to some physical event). It is explanatorily relevant because it is definable within the explanatory regime of physical dynamics.

>Likewise, suppose some biochemical property of neurons is essential to consciousness.

This is the meat of the issue so I will focus on this. The question is what kind of property could a biochemical property be that is not abstract and is crucial for consciousness? My argument is that there are no suitable properties to play the necessary role of grounding consciousness in the "real world" while denying it in a virtual/simulated world. The remainder of the space of candidate properties are non-physical, unscientific, and ultimately wishful thinking.

Given the idea that biology/chemistry reduces to physics, this strongly constrains the space of candidates for a biochemical property to ground consciousness. The content of physics is structure, dynamics, conservation laws, fields, probability, etc. The equations of physics don't describe consciousness, but the behavior and constraints on the entities quantified over. Note that as the equations of physics quantify over relevant entities, they are abstract. To say a biochemical property is crucial for consciousness is just to say that a physical property, broadly construed, is crucial for consciousness. Candidate properties can be divided into two sets: the structure, dynamics, etc of the content of physical theories (we can call these relational properties), and any non-relational/intrinsic properties that are not the content of physical theories but are relevant to the realization of physical events. These latter properties are not the subject matter of physics and we are epistemically blind to whatever they may be.

Crucially, causal closure together with the causal exclusion argument renders the intrinsic properties explanatorily empty with regards to any state reducible to the language of physics, i.e. structure, dynamics, etc. As it turns out, our verbal reports about consciousness can be described by stimulated wave patterns on the air. In other words, these verbal reports can be described in the language of physics. Therefore, by causal closure, they are fully explained by prior events within the subject matter of physics. By causal exclusion, any intrinsic properties of the realizers of these physical events are excluded from explanatory relevance. There is simply no room for "non-abstract biochemical properties" to be explanatorily relevant to verbal reports about consciousness. But if verbal reports about consciousness are to actually be about consciousness, then consciousness must be explanatorily relevant to said verbal reports. Hence consciousness must be definable within the content of the subject matter of physics.

The only saving grace for biological theories are non-causal, metaphysical influences that are somehow relevant to verbal reports. Or epiphenomenalism where consciousness is actually irrelevant to all the things we say about consciousness. Both of these options are unintelligible; they are cures worse than the disease of functionalism. Some like to imagine some kind of emergence, such as "when physical structures take on specific forms, certain states of consciousness manifest". A simulation wouldn't take on this form in the real world and so a simulation wouldn't be conscious. But laws of this nature are absurdly adhoc and don't offer explanations, only brute laws.

Re: Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radical or hard or global social constructionism [1] (or perhaps more accurately radical/hard/global relativism about truth [2]) are discredited because both are manifestly incoherent and prevent any serious thought from being possible, since they amount to a total denial of the existence of any kind of observer- or society-independent reality, i.e. they devolve to a solipsism of some form. Solipsism is not a coheren…

I'm starting to think that your condescending "go ask a chatbot" is not intended as an insult to imaginary annoying AI bros unable to comprehend High Matters That Have Been Definitely Solved Once And For All By Those Smart People In A Self-Evident Manner but is sincere in that you believe an LLM can say something new in this discussion. The statement that consciousness is subjective and should and will be interpreted…

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Re: Humanity has the debate about AI consciousness backwards

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start in the middle, where you say I wrote "When you have digitally modeled a brain such that the model responds to its inputs as a brain does, then you have built a brain." What I actually wrote was this: "Then, presumably, you will also hold that when you have digitally modeled a brain such that the model responds to its inputs as a brain does, then you have built a brain." This has to be read in the context…

Thanks for the reply. And I didn't mean to quote you out of context. The reason I brought up the enigma machine's hardware is to illustrate there is a difference between the physical machine and the abstract program that it can be observed to implement. However the machine can be used for more than that, for example I could use it as a footrest, or I could dissemble it's parts and use it to build a bomb. I could simu…

This is a follow-up to my previous reply, which may appear below this one. In that one, I forgot to say something about this: ‘…a bit pattern in computer memory [only] means “pain” because of how a program and its users interpret or employ it.’

This is somewhat begging the question, in that it tacitly presupposes that the system itself is incapable of interpreting it, but if the formation of this bit-pattern has certain consequences, such as the system saying it is in pain, redirecting its attention to finding any means to eliminate it while avoiding anything tending to exacerbate it, and forming memories which will have the consequence that the system will, from now on, try to avoid circumstances likely to cause its recurrence, then on what basis would you reject its own claims of being in pain?

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