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U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

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Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#601

Post by 15155 »

hvb2 wrote: post #593
15155 wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are. United States Code plainly disagrees with you, as do the laws of basically every developed nation in the world. Visas are not a right, by definition. > Your passport is a right too, I am a citizen, so this isn't a good faith comparison. Citizens naturally have higher priority than visitors, otherwise what's the purpose of citizenship as a concept at all?

I meant that I agreed that visas are a right. > I am a citizen, so this isn't a good faith comparison. Oh, you still are. You'll get your passport, we just can't tell you when. That's what's happening here. These people aren't being denied, they're told to wait for an indefinite amount of time. But basically you're saying that you think this is outrageous if it were you, got it.

> I meant that I agreed that visas are a right.

I've explicitly stated that visas are not a right - which is the legally-consistent opinion and basic English interpretation of the concept. (If visas were a right, why would denial be a possibility? If denial isn't a possibility, what function do they serve?)

> That's what's happening here. These people aren't being denied, they're told to wait for an indefinite amount of time.

What part of "these people" somehow makes them equivalent in entitlement to a nation's citizens - how is this even a question? Not agreeing that borders, citizenship are concepts generally doesn't make them magically cease to exist.

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#602

Post by pezezin »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #33
prepend wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends who are expats and they’ve done this for years. I had one family member who left every six months to renew their visa. It’s a chore, but very common around the world.

In the EU you do not need to leave to renew your visa. I don't know how common it is elsewhere.

Japan doesn't require you to leave either.

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#603

Post by a2ff6eeb0 »

Izikiel43 wrote: post #249
a2ff6eeb0 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, they never applied the simple option of ranking the visa applications by salary, and approving in order of demand for the talent. That would be a market based solution that allows everyone to get the talent they need without driving down American wages. But the point isn't about helping Americans, it's about being peedormatively against letting in brown people.

They are doing that now too, however the problem is that h1b is used for roles outside of tech, believe it or not, and if you measure everything by Bay Area tech salaries a bunch of necessary but lower paying jobs will go unfilled

They can pay more, or hire American.

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#604

Post by TimorousBestie »

rayiner wrote: post #580
debatem1 wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that how the moral issue is defined? Seems to me the moral issue is the stakes, and I have no idea why I would cede that judgement to you. What's your basis for claiming moral authority? If you don't, please show your homework: what strange anticonsequentialism underlies your claims, and why should I agree with it?

Consequentialism in general is a third-world mindset. But in this particular context it leads to the absurd result that someone who breaks the rules more egregiously is rewarded for doing so.

> Consequentialism in general is a third-world mindset.

Ah, this must be why so many utilitarian philosophers are European and American.

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#605

Post by rayiner »

debatem1 wrote: post #596
rayiner wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consequentialism in general is a third-world mindset. But in this particular context it leads to the absurd result that someone who breaks the rules more egregiously is rewarded for doing so.

Those sure are words. Can you relate them to the question in some way?

In first world countries, we focus on rules over consequences. If you build a dwelling on my property, the rule doesn't reward you for making a house rather than a tent. The moral analysis is based on the nature of the rule, not the consequences to those who break the rule.

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#606

Post by scheme271 »

hvb2 wrote: post #15

So for those that don't know, it's quite common for a visa renewal to be required to leave the country. Depending on the visa, you might have to do this every year. So just imagine, having a normal job in the US and you're asked to leave to renew your visa and this stuff happens. That's no more appointment, not even a new date and you're now very likely unable to work and possibly can't even enter the country to get…

The pause is for immigrant visas so most visas like H1 or H2 or O visas aren't affect this time. But it's definitely part of the US admin's overall theme of ratcheting up visa restrictions and making any immigration or travel to the US extremely difficult.

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#607

Post by foltik »

shostack wrote: post #311
conductr wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to make a political point at all and perhaps a controversial take. But, it’s specifically and maybe implicitly by design. Meaning they made this way precisely so you have to reapply so they can change their mind or block you out later. Nothing about getting a visa is permanent and you’re fully at risk when you move here with that type of status. If you evaluate the situation that’s always been the case.

The cruelty is the point.

Look around the thread and notice how little the comments defending these policies have to say about the policies themselves. Instead, what they all have in common is a vague underlying fear of being displaced, or sense that something owed to them is being taken.

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#608

Post by 15155 »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #592
15155 wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Leave to renew" becoming "leave, permanently" is insane, self-destructive cruelty. Which visas legally come with renewal guarantees ? Isn't that called permanent residency?

They come with renewal expectations , assuming the situation hasn't changed. Reserving the right to change the rules unilaterally doesn't make you not an asshole if you actually exercise that right. And government only functions if it's predictable - if it's a random-number generator (outside of processes that are explicitly lotteries), what is anyone supposed to do? Why would anyone engage with it? In most states, e…

> They come with renewal expectations, assuming the situation hasn't changed

What? Where is this expectation enumerated? An expiration date is in fact defined. I'm not sure where some legal expectation of guaranteed renewal could arise from.

> unilaterally doesn't make you not an asshole if you actually exercise that right.

"Asshole" is a matter of opinion, and rights aren't actually rights if you aren't ever able to exercise them.

> if you defended that manager I would similarly consider you unfit to participate in civil society.

Why have laws, borders at all by these standards? What's the point?

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#609

Post by hvb2 »

conductr wrote: post #590
hvb2 wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The leaving part is not the issue, as you try to immigrate into a country you're subject to the rules that country sets. You're always free to not immigrate into that country (this is not about asylum). The issue here is that, if you just left the country to do everything the country asked you, you are now in limbo. For how long? No one can tell. Does this mean you lose your job? Maybe. And when you decide it's no lo…

> The issue here is that, if you just left the country to do everything the country asked you, you are now in limbo. I feel like I’ve said it a few times but - Yes, exactly. The country wants you to leave and then get’s to decide if you can come back. That’s how it’s designed. On purpose. You’re approaching it from a perspective where you’re being asked to leave and your reentry is a right. It’s not. They never said,…

> I feel like I’ve said it a few times but - Yes, exactly. The country wants you to leave and then get’s to decide if you can come back. That’s how it’s designed. On purpose.

That is how it's designed, and that's fine.

But make a decision... They're pausing the decision making for an indefinite amount of time. That's not how it was designed, but it sure does look like that's on purpose.

Re: U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications

#610

Post by [deleted] »

xdennis wrote: post #308
jjk166 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It most certainly is hypocritical. You can not be simultaneously pro-legal immigration and support banning legal immigration. If you support banning legal immigration, you are by definition anti-legal immigration. > Being anti-illegal immigration and pro-legal immigration doesn't mean you want to flood the country with legal immigrants. If only there were something between 0 and unrestricted immigration, some sort of…

> You can not be simultaneously pro-legal immigration and support banning legal immigration. Nobody is banning legal immigration. It's being restricted. The headline itself says "pauses". Do you think no legal immigrant will be let into the US until 2028? > some sort of program where people apply for permission Yes, and if that program is being abused (just ask people here on HN about H1Bs to see how they feel), then…

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