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Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

nature.com

81–90 of 135 posts

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care if someone is fat. What I care about is the loons saying that it's healthy and fine to be morbidly obese and they use stuff like this to back it up. "Gut bacteria are the cause, I can do nothing" "It's genetics" No, it's calories in vs calories out. Maybe these bacteria make you want to eat more, maybe they somehow pull more energy out of food than normal gut flora somehow, in the end it doesn't really m…

God this calories in / calories out shit has got to die. Stop leaving out the fucking calorie absorption efficiency factor if you don't want to sound like just as much of an idiot as the people you are complaining about. Gasoline has a shitload of calories in it. You will definitely not get fat drinking it. There is literally no one in the field who thinks this is true or ever did. There is certainly an argument abou…

Yes obviously I'm talking about drinking gas. I guess I stand refuted.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#82
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we already have strong evidence to suggest that calorie deficit diets do not have a causal relationship with weight loss I don't know if you meant something else here, but of course eating less causes weight loss.

There are people who don't believe that. Every time I hear about it I tell them to get to a physics lab because they are a walking Nobel Prize.

Obviously eating less will cause weight loss. The problem is actually being able to eat less and to keep doing that for life. Maybe that is not a problem for you ... so far, but it is a real problem for many people.

This article could shed more light on the obesity problem and solutions to it. For example, it could very well be that our intestinal flora influences our own decision making. There is at least one known case of a micro-organism that does: the toxoplasma gondii.

It is also apparent that people become addict to sugar and that definitely would influence decision making.

On top of that, our behavior is in great extent influenced, if not determined, by the chemistry of our bodies. It may very well be that chemical imbalances caused by a combination of diet, intestinal flora and hormones, causes obesity.

In short, saying that it is simply a problem of calories in and calories out is a gross over-simplification of the problem. Science is way beyond that point.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#83
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, we should all lament the possible passing of another way of judging people inferior to us.

I don't care if someone is fat. What I care about is the loons saying that it's healthy and fine to be morbidly obese and they use stuff like this to back it up. "Gut bacteria are the cause, I can do nothing" "It's genetics" No, it's calories in vs calories out. Maybe these bacteria make you want to eat more, maybe they somehow pull more energy out of food than normal gut flora somehow, in the end it doesn't really m…

I think you're ignoring a wealth of research just because it doesn't fit with your world-view.

There is a fair amount of evidence indicating both genetic and epigenetic contributions to obesity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12574619

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Search&db=pubmed&...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=obesity%20epigenetic...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=obesity%20genetics

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#84
post #80

Gut bacteria are an extremely powerful system within our bodies and are mostly still mysterious to us. Imbalances of one type or another lead to large amounts of bacterial toxins being introduced to the intestine and the bloodstream, with wide-ranging mental and physical effects. I'm not surprised that contribution to obesity is among them. It works kind of like this: You eat too much refined/processed food, that is…

No. It is pretty much impossible to overload your body's ability to absorb carbohydrates without a) exploding your stomach or b) you have some other health problem. By the time the food you eat gets to the bacteria, there are no sugar, fat or protein left. We absorb it all. We store extra of the first two and excrete the third (in a modified form) through urine. Refined/processed food should be eaten in minimal quant…

> Refined/processed food should be eaten in minimal quantities because it spikes blood sugar and causes insulin fatigue, which in the long run causes Type II diabetes.

What precisely does refined/processed food mean, from a chemistry standpoint? Is there a particular common process that transforms my homegrown lettuce into "refined lettuce"?

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#85

Gut bacteria are an extremely powerful system within our bodies and are mostly still mysterious to us. Imbalances of one type or another lead to large amounts of bacterial toxins being introduced to the intestine and the bloodstream, with wide-ranging mental and physical effects. I'm not surprised that contribution to obesity is among them. It works kind of like this: You eat too much refined/processed food, that is…

Interesting how the book in your link disallows all whole grains, while the linked article specifically point out that the patient's diet consisted of "whole grains, traditional Chinese medicinal foods and prebiotics".

They also disallow milk, but allow cheese. My ancestors didn't spend thousands of years evolving lactose-tolerance for nothing, you know.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#86
post #61
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The patient was not on antibiotics, he was on prebiotics. So, this is something you could do yourself without a doctors cooperation.

The WTP diet is described as 'whole grains, traditional Chinese medicine and prebiotics'. Perhaps there's an active ingredient in the traditional medicine (e.g. an antibiotic occurring in plants)?

Also, a lot of spices have antibiotic properties, and some oils. Food and its impact on health is more chemically complex than most people seem to realize.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#87

It is interesting to consider that periodic fasts and/or abstaining from certain foods for a time (such as Lent during the Orthodox calendar), seen in many religions, might have a health benefit by suppressing certain gut bacteria, or at least managing gut flora.

Is it actually interesting? Even the rules were chosen randomly, you'd expect any large body of rules to get something by sheer chance alone.

yes, it is interesting. Consider that vitamin C was known to prevent scurvy, but then that knowledge was lost, and rediscovered later on. How much knowledge may be codified in ancient customs, and that we might have forgotten the foundations for that knowledge.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#88
post #54

Gut bacteria are an extremely powerful system within our bodies and are mostly still mysterious to us. Imbalances of one type or another lead to large amounts of bacterial toxins being introduced to the intestine and the bloodstream, with wide-ranging mental and physical effects. I'm not surprised that contribution to obesity is among them. It works kind of like this: You eat too much refined/processed food, that is…

Forgive my naivete (I have a passing knowledge about diet), but isn't 'complex polysaccharides' more or less a synonym for 'complex carbohydrates' (excluding oligosaccharides)? I feel that most readily available refined/processed food is low in complex carbs since the processing breaks them down, and because simple carbs are cheaper and taste better. Essentially my question is this: A fresh vegetarian diet is going t…

You are correct to doubt the meaning of these words as they are being flung around for the sole reason of providing credibility. Your mistake is coming with scientific thoughts into a discussion that is utterly non-scientific and purely based on making money with buzzword-laden books by turning anything related to food into a weird cult-like experience.

But at least your questions are in an area where I can maybe help out. Carbohydrates are just what the name says: carbon molecules with hydrogen and oxygen attached to them. Complexity of carbohydrates is a spectrum, with formaldehyde being at one end and ultra-complex molecules such as huge amino-saccharides or polymers on the other. Saccharides are sugars, who all belong to the carbohydrate family. As far as nutrition is concerned, most sugars are based on the glucose molecule, that's a unit with 6 carbon atoms typically wound into a ring with six or five edges. Chaining those rings together makes polysaccharides.

Overly long saccharide chains only fit into our sweetness taste detectors at one point, that's one ping each from a huge number of saccharide rings. Smaller sugars (like dextrose) cause a lot more signal by fitting better into the detectors, that's why they tend to taste sweeter. Polysaccharide disassembly starts with enzymes in the saliva of the mouth, that's why some things get sweeter when you chew on them for a while. For people who don't gobble down their food to quickly, that means only small sugar molecules even arrive in the small intestine, where they are further split into monosaccharides which can finally be resorbed through the intestinal wall. The small intestine is ill-equipped to handle longer chains, though, that's why they pass into the large intestine. In itself that's not a problem, but if there is a _regular and large_ amount of this stuff in the large intestine, it will attract microbes that live off it.

So if a lot of sugars regularly make it into the large intestine, chances are there will be a population of bacteria (or worse: funghi) taking advantage of that. It's not like the bacteria cause obesity as some articles suggest, their presence is itself a symptom of a nutritional problem (such as too much intake). Of course sometimes these colonies cause other problems like inflammatory reactions that eventually necessitate flushing them out. But saying those bacteria cause obesity is just the new "I'm not fat, I'm big boned", a mechanism designed to deflect the responsibility for obesity away from a person's behavior.

The digestive system is designed to survive and thrive on a variety of food, but there is also a lot that can go wrong. It's not "evil complex polysaccharides" wreaking havoc and producing energy out of thin air to make people fat, it's (as always) people eating too much who are bringing this upon themselves.

One good thing food cults such as the different "nutrition plans" and "strategies" can do, however, is making people reflect on their habits and generally lower their energy consumption. To make it extra clear: I don't think vegetarianism is one of these cults, but it too causes people to eat more carefully.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangential, but: is the whole obsession with fiber a bit misguided? If polysaccharides are largely responsible for feeding gut bacteria (good and bad), and your link recommends cutting them out, then by definition, we should be cutting out dietary fibers (most of which are polysaccharides). Fiber is mostly undigestible in our stomachs and upper GI tracts, but is readily fermented by (and feeds) intestinal bacteria. O…

The fiber helps your bowels work correctly. We were not created to evacuate bricks. You don't need a PhD in organic chemistry and biology to understand that, just experience with babies.

Well, yes and no. A lot of cultures live almost exclusively on carnivorous diets, in which vegetable fiber is extremely rare (if eaten at all). Evidently the fats in the diet serve as lubricants in the absence of the mechanical action that fibers serve in the intestines.

I'm not disputing that fibers help "push things along" by absorbing water, adding bulk, etc. But are we overeating them? Do we really need to be making a conscious effort to add or supplement them in our diets?

FWIW: I'm not pushing some sort of anti-fiber claim or agenda here. I'm neutral on the subject. I'm simply inquiring.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fiber helps your bowels work correctly. We were not created to evacuate bricks. You don't need a PhD in organic chemistry and biology to understand that, just experience with babies.

Well, yes and no. A lot of cultures live almost exclusively on carnivorous diets, in which vegetable fiber is extremely rare (if eaten at all). Evidently the fats in the diet serve as lubricants in the absence of the mechanical action that fibers serve in the intestines. I'm not disputing that fibers help "push things along" by absorbing water, adding bulk, etc. But are we overeating them? Do we really need to be mak…

I think that depends in part on who your ancestors are -- I.e. do you have genes from a carnivorous culture?

My exhusband is part Viking, basically. They ate a lot of meat, in part because they lived so far north that you couldn't grow enough plantbased foods. My ex ate a very high meat diet. Our sons eat less meat than he did, but they are 1/4 Norwegian whereas he is 1/2. Still, they tolerate more meat in their diet than I do. I am convinced there is a genetic component here.

(Yes I know: Anecdotal and all that.)

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