Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice • Hacker News Board

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#61

Post by Luc » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:07 PM UTC

pdx wrote: post #29

acgourley wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people who didn't read the summary - that patient who lost 30kg and reduced their bacteria population was on anti-biotics. So, right, it would be interesting to see if that bacteria reduces without the anti-biotics. But before you think the researchers left a big hole in their research, remember that the addition of bacteria makes mice obese. Now if we could just try that on humans... edit: As pdx points out belo…

The patient was not on antibiotics, he was on prebiotics. So, this is something you could do yourself without a doctors cooperation.

The WTP diet is described as 'whole grains, traditional Chinese medicine and prebiotics'. Perhaps there's an active ingredient in the traditional medicine (e.g. an antibiotic occurring in plants)?

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#62

Post by Able7 » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:08 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #9

Ok, this is an interesting observation: "After 9 weeks on the WTP diet, this Enterobacter population in the volunteer's gut reduced to 1.8%, and became undetectable by the end of the 23-week trial" So the thesis is that this bacteria lives in obese people's gut, and it makes them more obese. But once they diet to a point where they are not obese, the bacteria dies off? I wonder if they are going to try a diet + anti-…

No antibiotics were involved but the WTP diet consisted of 1344Cal daily diet of canned porridge (. . ."4 cans of gruel per day" . . .) - Quoted from 'Supplimental Material' to the original study publication http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ism.... But, there is absolutely no specific information as to the actual ingredients of the "porridge/gruel" so there seems to be no way to actually repeat this research or try the diet individually.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#63

Post by tarice » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:09 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #9

Ok, this is an interesting observation: "After 9 weeks on the WTP diet, this Enterobacter population in the volunteer's gut reduced to 1.8%, and became undetectable by the end of the 23-week trial" So the thesis is that this bacteria lives in obese people's gut, and it makes them more obese. But once they diet to a point where they are not obese, the bacteria dies off? I wonder if they are going to try a diet + anti-…

But once they diet to a point where they are not obese, the bacteria dies off?

I believe the theory is the reverse - by killing off the bacteria, the person becomes less obese.

Anti-biotics probably won't work as well as you hope because they kill all the bacteria in the gut - good and bad - which will just create more digestive problems.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#64

Post by jules » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:09 PM UTC

AsylumWarden wrote: post #31

indiecore wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care if someone is fat. What I care about is the loons saying that it's healthy and fine to be morbidly obese and they use stuff like this to back it up. "Gut bacteria are the cause, I can do nothing" "It's genetics" No, it's calories in vs calories out. Maybe these bacteria make you want to eat more, maybe they somehow pull more energy out of food than normal gut flora somehow, in the end it doesn't really m…

No, you are still wrong. I am morbidly obese and struggle with my weight daily. It will kill me in the end but I want to know what you would do when your metabolism is so low that your normal body temperature hangs at around 97.2F and resists being raised even by means of medications and heavy exercise. I'm sorry but when numerous doctors over 20 years all throw their hands up and say they can't help then there is no…

If you sport 6 hours a day and do not eat more you are going to lose weight extremely rapidly since you will need at least 4000 kcal just for that sport (compare with a normal daily expenditure of 2500 kcal). If your body really does use significantly fewer calories for the same activity as a normal person I would be very surprised. Millions of years of evolution have already optimized our energy efficiency to the limit. You probably wouldn't survive on 700 calories per day even if you stayed in bed all day, let alone living a normal lifestyle. In fact, just maintaining body fat requires calories, so if activities are otherwise the same an obese person burns through more calories.

That isn't to say that there are no genetic differences that influence body weight, there certainly are! It's just that the mechanism isn't energy efficiency, it's genetic factors that influence how much a person eats and how active a person is.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#65

Post by sliverstorm » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:10 PM UTC

jonnathanson wrote: post #46

splatcollision wrote: post #18

Gut bacteria are an extremely powerful system within our bodies and are mostly still mysterious to us. Imbalances of one type or another lead to large amounts of bacterial toxins being introduced to the intestine and the bloodstream, with wide-ranging mental and physical effects. I'm not surprised that contribution to obesity is among them. It works kind of like this: You eat too much refined/processed food, that is…

Tangential, but: is the whole obsession with fiber a bit misguided? If polysaccharides are largely responsible for feeding gut bacteria (good and bad), and your link recommends cutting them out, then by definition, we should be cutting out dietary fibers (most of which are polysaccharides). Fiber is mostly undigestible in our stomachs and upper GI tracts, but is readily fermented by (and feeds) intestinal bacteria. O…

Most people are not aware that "fiber" is really just chains of sugar. I suspect this is where a lot of conflicting advice comes from.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#66

Post by krenoten » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:18 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #52

patrickgzill wrote: post #35

It is interesting to consider that periodic fasts and/or abstaining from certain foods for a time (such as Lent during the Orthodox calendar), seen in many religions, might have a health benefit by suppressing certain gut bacteria, or at least managing gut flora.

Is it actually interesting? Even the rules were chosen randomly, you'd expect any large body of rules to get something by sheer chance alone.

It might better be viewed as a behavioral "mutation" of sorts that improved the viability of those who adopted the practice. There are many interesting things that happen by chance.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#67

Post by neilk » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:21 PM UTC

indiecore wrote: post #37

AsylumWarden wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you are still wrong. I am morbidly obese and struggle with my weight daily. It will kill me in the end but I want to know what you would do when your metabolism is so low that your normal body temperature hangs at around 97.2F and resists being raised even by means of medications and heavy exercise. I'm sorry but when numerous doctors over 20 years all throw their hands up and say they can't help then there is no…

If your condition is as you describe than I'm sorry for you but you're one of like 0.1% of the population (probably less). It's fine, you got dealt a shit hand but you aren't saying that being obese is a healthy lifestyle and the thing is other people are . Everyone I've ever known or read about has gained weight by eating more and lost weight by eating less, again less and more vary from individual to individual but…

Dude, you're just embarrassing yourself. Stop.

Until you brought it up, nobody had said that this article means fat is a-okay. In fact, the article treats obesity as a disease, so it's the reverse.

If you ever find yourself getting mad at people for what they might say, you are definitely dealing with your own issues.

Doubly so if you take the time to rebut these imaginary enemies in a public forum.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#68

Post by gamache » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:22 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #27

splatcollision wrote: post #18

Gut bacteria are an extremely powerful system within our bodies and are mostly still mysterious to us. Imbalances of one type or another lead to large amounts of bacterial toxins being introduced to the intestine and the bloodstream, with wide-ranging mental and physical effects. I'm not surprised that contribution to obesity is among them. It works kind of like this: You eat too much refined/processed food, that is…

"[the pathogen] can induce obesity and insulin resistance via an inflammation-mediated pathway" This is why weed reduces one's risk of diabetes and also often helps obese people lose weight.[1] For what it's worth, you can now actually (supposedly) buy CBD (supposedly) legally online: http://dixiex.com/ CBD is one of the more common non-psychoactive cannabinoids in marijuana, and it is responsible for many of the ant…

CBD is most definitely psychoactive. It also accounts for about 25-50% of marijuana's active components, so we are living in a world full of long-term data.

Cannabidiol is most definitely illegal in the US, too. That DixieX site you link to is just hemp oil products -- no psychoactives.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#69

Post by hcarvalhoalves » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:22 PM UTC

jonnathanson wrote: post #46

splatcollision wrote: post #18

Gut bacteria are an extremely powerful system within our bodies and are mostly still mysterious to us. Imbalances of one type or another lead to large amounts of bacterial toxins being introduced to the intestine and the bloodstream, with wide-ranging mental and physical effects. I'm not surprised that contribution to obesity is among them. It works kind of like this: You eat too much refined/processed food, that is…

Tangential, but: is the whole obsession with fiber a bit misguided? If polysaccharides are largely responsible for feeding gut bacteria (good and bad), and your link recommends cutting them out, then by definition, we should be cutting out dietary fibers (most of which are polysaccharides). Fiber is mostly undigestible in our stomachs and upper GI tracts, but is readily fermented by (and feeds) intestinal bacteria. O…

The fiber helps your bowels work correctly. We were not created to evacuate bricks. You don't need a PhD in organic chemistry and biology to understand that, just experience with babies.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#70

Post by im3w1l » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:23 PM UTC

tarice wrote: post #63

ChuckMcM wrote: post #9

Ok, this is an interesting observation: "After 9 weeks on the WTP diet, this Enterobacter population in the volunteer's gut reduced to 1.8%, and became undetectable by the end of the 23-week trial" So the thesis is that this bacteria lives in obese people's gut, and it makes them more obese. But once they diet to a point where they are not obese, the bacteria dies off? I wonder if they are going to try a diet + anti-…

But once they diet to a point where they are not obese, the bacteria dies off? I believe the theory is the reverse - by killing off the bacteria, the person becomes less obese. Anti-biotics probably won't work as well as you hope because they kill all the bacteria in the gut - good and bad - which will just create more digestive problems.

Poop transplants. Sounds gross, but can apparently work.