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U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

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Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#31

Post by vrganj »

XorNot wrote: post #27
Zambyte wrote: post #24

It seems like there will be a collapse in building data centers, to the point that a large amount of the newly built ones will be reclaimed for other things. There is a very large group of people who are against building new data centers because they hate AI (and any pollution related arguments these people make are in support of their primary concern, being AI). But on the flip side of that, even people that I know…

What are you running at home, out of interest? While I cautiously circle the AI programming concept, one thing close to my mind has definitely been whether the ultimately cloud-tied nature of it is what makes me much more stand offish to it.

Not the parent, but I'm enjoying Qwen 3.8 27B on my Strix Halo machine.

Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#33

Post by flanked-evergl »

ozlikethewizard wrote: post #14
flanked-evergl wrote: post #4

This degrowth anti-technology mindset just does not make sense to me, and I think it's mostly astroturfed from TikTok.

I'm sure the luddites got all their ideas from TikTok aye? At least were not at this point yet: "Mill and factory owners took to shooting protesters and eventually the Luddites were suppressed by legal and military force, which included execution and penal transportation of accused and convicted Luddites." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddites

"The luddites were right" seems like an odd position to have on HN.

Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#34

Post by vrganj »

flanked-evergl wrote: post #29
goda90 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part confuses you? The threat to stable and affordable electricity and water supply? The water, light and noise pollution? The threat to jobs? The threat to truth and transparency? The threat to privacy?

> The threat to stable and affordable electricity and water supply The only threat to stable and affordable electricity supply is government regulations. The idea that we will from here on just have degrown and decline is insane. I'm not up for that. Which means we will always need more electricity, so time to get building more power plants. There is no bounds to how much electricity humans need, and the more we have…

> The only threat to stable and affordable electricity supply is government regulations

That is straight up not true. Theres currently a threat due to the imprudently started war in the Middle East, there will be more once rivers start drying up and hydropower becomes unreliable or nuclear power plants can no longer be cooled.

> Which means we will always need more electricity, so time to get building more power plants. There is no bounds to how much electricity humans need, and the more we have the more prosperity we will have

This is an ideological dogma smuggled in as a self-evident truth. Please do make a point, not just an unsupported declaration.

Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#35

Post by watwut »

docdeek wrote: post #12
vintagedave wrote: post #2

> The latest proposal applies to permits for a "minor source" of air pollution ... [the Vantage data center was estimated to contribute] between $53 million and $99 million in annual health damages, the largest estimate for any single facility ever. 'The largest estimate for any single facility ever.' 'Minor source.' I give you double-speak, gentlefolks of HN. Name it something - anything - and you frame it in those…

FTA: 'The largest estimate for any single facility ever.' From the researcher: 'We estimated between $53 million and $99 million in annual health damages from associated air pollution — among the largest health-damage estimates produced for a single facility to date.' [0] Still enormous, but there is a significant difference between being 'THE X of all time, and being 'among the X of all time'. Regarding 'minor sourc…

Health costs don't matter, because someone else is paying them. We handwave them with "well only 3-4 additional people die after paying that cost.

The air pollution does not matter, because global warming already exists and air is already polluted. And making all that worst also does not matter, because who cares about anything but what AI companies want.

Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#36

Post by flanked-evergl »

meltyness wrote: post #28
flanked-evergl wrote: post #4

This degrowth anti-technology mindset just does not make sense to me, and I think it's mostly astroturfed from TikTok.

are you confident the demand for massive ai datacenters peppered everywhere isn't just some financial gambit? wouldn't you ask for consequences and side-effects that are socially desirable, even if the facility brings no wealth to the immediate area (either as a consequence of being owned by a remote corp, or by the investment failing completely).

> are you confident the demand for massive ai datacenters peppered everywhere isn't just some financial gambit?

yes.

Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#37

Post by alex43578 »

ozlikethewizard wrote: post #14
flanked-evergl wrote: post #4

This degrowth anti-technology mindset just does not make sense to me, and I think it's mostly astroturfed from TikTok.

I'm sure the luddites got all their ideas from TikTok aye? At least were not at this point yet: "Mill and factory owners took to shooting protesters and eventually the Luddites were suppressed by legal and military force, which included execution and penal transportation of accused and convicted Luddites." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddites

People have often resisted progress of all sorts, particularly if they feel it threatens their position or erodes their sense of superiority.

Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#38

Post by flanked-evergl »

vrganj wrote: post #34
flanked-evergl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The threat to stable and affordable electricity and water supply The only threat to stable and affordable electricity supply is government regulations. The idea that we will from here on just have degrown and decline is insane. I'm not up for that. Which means we will always need more electricity, so time to get building more power plants. There is no bounds to how much electricity humans need, and the more we have…

> The only threat to stable and affordable electricity supply is government regulations That is straight up not true. Theres currently a threat due to the imprudently started war in the Middle East, there will be more once rivers start drying up and hydropower becomes unreliable or nuclear power plants can no longer be cooled. > Which means we will always need more electricity, so time to get building more power plan…

> That is straight up not true. Theres currently a threat due to the imprudently started war in the Middle East

The US does not use crude oil from the Gulf to generate electricity. The US could scale electricity production at least 100 times without needing to import anything from the Middle East.

> there will be more once rivers start drying up

Rivers will not be drying up because of data centers.

Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#39

Post by kodoman »

XorNot wrote: post #27
Zambyte wrote: post #24

It seems like there will be a collapse in building data centers, to the point that a large amount of the newly built ones will be reclaimed for other things. There is a very large group of people who are against building new data centers because they hate AI (and any pollution related arguments these people make are in support of their primary concern, being AI). But on the flip side of that, even people that I know…

What are you running at home, out of interest? While I cautiously circle the AI programming concept, one thing close to my mind has definitely been whether the ultimately cloud-tied nature of it is what makes me much more stand offish to it.

I am GPU poor and have a piece of crap rx570 8GB but still get ok performance out of qwen3.5-9B-4bit and various fine tuned versions. Plan on finally buying a decent gpu like a amd 7900 xtx. I still use claude for coding primarily but do research locally. What everyone has said about qwen3.8 though is making me feel I really need to invest in a decent rig.

Re: U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

#40

Post by unrented7977 »

cmiles8 wrote: post #7

There isn’t much the federal government can do here. Planning permission is very local in the US. If local officials don’t want a data center it isn’t happening. In most communities these days you’d have better luck proposing to build a toxic waste processing facility than a data center.

No? This isn't a planning permission question, the federal government has eminent domain and can simply take land for federal use. Just like with the railroads and power grid.

Of course building datacenters is absolutely not what eminent domain is for, but rules don't apply anymore, so they'll probably do it anyway until the supreme court stops them.

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