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How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

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Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might explain internet pricing in North Dakota, but it doesn't explain it in NYC or DC or LA.

I pay $40/mo for 500mbps in my Bushwick apartment - is that considered expensive?

I’m paying 100 bucks for 2.5gb fiber in socal. I don’t consider that expensive either. I’ve seen internet prices internationally and they kinda suck outside of some areas that have decent providers - but that goes for the US too.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit cards are cheaper than cash for most merchants. Most people forget about all the costs of cash because they are hidden, but they add up to more than the couple % credit cards cost.

> Credit cards are cheaper than cash for most merchants. Huh. I always thought it was the opposite. I know several restaurants that refuse to accept credit cards. They are great places to eat, but I won't go there. I don't think they miss my custom, though. Refusing to accept credit seems to be a signal of excellence, around here.

Small cash-only businesses sometimes have other motivations to stay that way, like: The books can say whatever the owner wants them to say.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#323

This ignores the aspect of consumer data. Credit issuers generate profit through issuing rewards programs in part due to the sale of their customer’s behavioral spending data. Cash and debit users largely retain their data privacy here. It’s hard to put a real world number on what the cost to the consumer is for losing this data ownership, but it is not zero: these data are increasingly used for targeted pricing prac…

Debit card usage is also used for data brokering.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#324

This ignores the aspect of consumer data. Credit issuers generate profit through issuing rewards programs in part due to the sale of their customer’s behavioral spending data. Cash and debit users largely retain their data privacy here. It’s hard to put a real world number on what the cost to the consumer is for losing this data ownership, but it is not zero: these data are increasingly used for targeted pricing prac…

Debit card usage is also used for data brokering.

Yes, but typically only on the retailer/ Point of Sales side. Your bank is not selling that information. Of course, things get weird when you have additional intermediaries like Apple or Google pay. In principle at least, there should be some measurable difference vs credit.

Would be very curious to see studies on this if anyone finds one!

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#326
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet access isn't particularly expensive in the US. Healthcare, education, and housing are expensive in the US for the same primary reason: political interventions that simultaneously subsidize demand and restrict supply.

it is for what you get. the US LEC and CLEC system sucks, and I had wayyyy more options in the EU, and in fairly upfront and straightforward ways. e.g. https://documentscontractuels.orange.fr/les-offres-orange-mo...

The EU doesn’t have the challenging scope and geography of the US, no?

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#327
post #115
post #31

Credit cards also transfer wealth from people who pay interest to people who don’t. It’s a silly system, where everyone has to invest their time (optimizing for rewards, avoiding interest) in an ultimately negative sum game. I hate it so much.

Patrick McKenzie rebuts this here: (podcast) https://open.spotify.com/episode/2E2KRPcDvh1LcRw5bIsBms or here (article): https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/anatomy-of-credit-car... The intuition being: people who carry balances and pay interest don't actually spend very much; they are not wealthy.

Patrick McKenzie is a dishonest industry insider that cannot be trusted on this topic, and therefore probably any other. Sophistry to an extreme.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#328

Patrick McKenzie (patio11 fame) had a great blog post in credit card rewards There is a lot that goes into it, and it is interesting how customers like me who literally never have carried interest and have to made thousands of $ in rewards over the years still make the banks money.... https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/anatomy-of-credit-car...

Credit card points/miles are an interesting topic, and I have found them to be kind of useful cyclically myself over last 20 years. They are a way for airlines to create value out of thin air with their own fiat currency. For the average consumer the miles create less of a pure economic efficient benefit and more of a psychic benefit - funny money bucket that accumulates to defray some trip expenses. Economically the…

Economically they'd be best off with an outright 2% back card.

Robin hood is pushing a 3% card right now. Not holding my breath for the rate to last more than a year though.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#330
post #7

Important context: this is US thing. EU capped interchange fees at 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit cards. So in US card processing is x5-x10 more expensive.

It's partly true: this only applies to consumer cards. That's why many EU banks still offer corporate credit cards with huge cashback etc. For example, revolut offers no cashback in France on their metal cards if you have a consumer account, but up to 1% cashback on the same card if you have a "freelance" account. https://www.revolut.com/fr-FR/metal/ Second thing: interchange fees are not the only fees that your typi…

> That's why many EU banks still offer corporate credit cards with huge cashback et

We're a business in the UK and the charges for accepting Business credit cards is much higher.

I don't have current charges to hand, but in 2023 Personal Credit Cards were 1.97% whilst for Business Credit Cards we were charged 3.43%. That's probably how they afford such high cashback/loyalty schemes.

I think we're paying about half those rates now. I know Amex is somewhere between Personal and Business charges.

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