Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

lectronz.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#951

Post by anigbrowl »

dana-s wrote: post #745
anigbrowl wrote: post #600

Thanks to tomis who posted the EU FAQ on the topic below: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/ad1... None of this applies to companies that are micro-enterprises or use generic rather than branded packaging. There's a helpful diagram on page 13. The author of this article seems to have imagined a worst-case scenario based on either a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the EU rules; the disc…

Is a package branded if it has a sticker on it? Is it branded if it's got a print on the outside? If it has a tape that has the brand on it? Because all these cases have happened to smaller shops I buy from. One has a tape on regular boxes that is branded Other has stickers on the packages to identify it And one has a small branded plastic packaging. I doubt any of them is bringing home more than 500k EUR in revenues…

Sounds like those small companies would be micro-enterprises, no?

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#952

Post by anigbrowl »

harha wrote: post #702
anigbrowl wrote: post #600

Thanks to tomis who posted the EU FAQ on the topic below: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/ad1... None of this applies to companies that are micro-enterprises or use generic rather than branded packaging. There's a helpful diagram on page 13. The author of this article seems to have imagined a worst-case scenario based on either a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the EU rules; the disc…

Better not grow then!

Why not? If you grow and you're producing more packaging that ends up as waste, your reporting responsibilities/liability scale with your output. As I mentioned in another comment, you're not liable to do detailed reports (identifying what sort of packaging material you produce across 22 categories) until you're producing 10 tons a year.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#953

Post by rcxdude »

HWR_14 wrote: post #934
rcxdude wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already places that will take an annual fee for dealing with this bureaucracy for you, as well.

This article is claiming that his online platform wants to offer that service but they are legally forbidden from doing so. In fact, they suggest allowing services to perform this is a reasonable solution to the whole problem.

It is harder to offer fulfilment as a service, but there are companies that will give you a registered agent in all the relevant countries and help you with the paperwork. It does still look like it's quite expensive though.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#954

Post by rickdeckard »

stnikolauswagne wrote: post #902
rickdeckard wrote: post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The polish government is not relevant in your case. It was a regulation written and signed by the Union of all countries. Your local German government is your elected representative in the European Union. They should have influenced the form of this regulation because its final form affects the business of (German) citizens in the (Polish) market and threatens the EU single-market for SMB.

Trying to be good faith here: It was decided that the registration is left to the individual countries (which I personally agree with, at least I think I do). Now the deadline has come and passed and some of the individual countries have not provided easy ways of registering. At what point should which entity done what? Should I as a SMB been keeping track of the registries for the individual countries and lobbied my…

(Absolutely in good faith here as well, just angry at local governments not doing their job)

It was decided collectively(!) that a registration in the individual countries is the process to use. Against the original draft, in which the European Commission explicitly(!) proposed EU-wide packaging requirements due to concerns of fragmented processes.

The result is a nationalization of the packaging compliance for a producer, while the obligations for the product inside that packaging, the seller, the buyer, the payment transfer etc. are all already regulated on EU-level.

This should have been reviewed by the country members with local experts, in your case a duty of the German representatives in the EU, and ultimately opposed as bad solution for SMB (the very business that the government claims to support).

Now it is a enforced regulation. You can of course give feedback to the EU [0], but in my opinion the only meaningful (yet exhausting) move as a SMB is to put the pressure on your LOCAL government (directly and via the local chamber of commerce) that they frankly f#cked up in representing your interests, causing you a competitive disadvantage in the European single market.

We will need to extinguish every attempt to blame this on "the EU". Germany was THERE when this regulation was written, there were 14(!) sessions within the European Council and 5 sessions in the European Parliament on this topic throughout 2023 and 2024 [1]

The EU is very transparent on this process, e.g. in case of Germany you can look up that Delara Burkhardt of SPD was one of the rapporteurs of the process, but there is no noted contribution from German parliament to this regulation at all (but from Czech, Italy, Spain, Romania, Poland)

(Don't get me wrong, all the proposed steps above apply to me as well. We now need to create noise to rectify something that could have been easily avoided if elected representatives would also ... represent)

[0] https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa...

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/procedure/EN/2022_396#2023-07-19_O...

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#955

Post by mbq77 »

dvdkon wrote: post #894
mbq77 wrote: post #864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except there is no incentive whatsoever; it is just pay bureaucrats with your consumer's money, so they can report improvement in fake eco-points. Most garbage collection money sinks have pricing like 1000 EUR yearly forever + 0.01 EUR per ton of arbitrarily unsustainable trash.

> pay bureaucrats with your consumer's money Once the consumer has paid, it's your money now. The incentive is clear, less packaging means more money you keep. That only big producers will actually see the per-ton payments as significant instead of just having to pay absurd registration fees is a separate issue.

Literally, no; as a small producer, I would have to pay (yearly, per country!) WEEE and PPWR money regardless of my sales, while per-volume costs are so low that the optimisation of a product footprint is meaningless. There is no de minimis though, I have to fill out forms that I have produced like 0.8 kg of cardboard and 0.3 kg of e-waste, yet collected nothing since none of my users would like ever use 1:1 rule to send me an out-of-life USB dongle while buying a new one.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#956

Post by peteforde »

Austria: Federal Environment Agency / approved dual system. P €810 + W €1,110 = €1,920/yr. Battery: +€1,110.

Belgium: IVC/CIE; Fost Plus for household packaging / Valipac for commercial packaging. P €585 + W €585 = €1,170/yr. Battery: +€585.

Bulgaria: Executive Environment Agency / Ecopack or another approved system. P €375 + W €990 = €1,365/yr. Battery: +€1,195.

Croatia: FZOEU / RPPO. P €780 + W €1,315 = €2,095/yr. Battery: +€1,315.

Cyprus: Green Dot Cyprus or applicable national system. P €375 + W €910 = €1,285/yr. Battery: +€910.

Czechia: Ministry of Environment / EKO-KOM. P €385 + W €1,110 = €1,495/yr. Battery: +€910.

Denmark: Danish Producer Responsibility / approved PRO. P €1,110 + W €925 = €2,035/yr. Battery: +€730.

Estonia: Pakendiregister / approved PRO. P €385 + W €775 = €1,160/yr. Battery: +€775.

Finland: Producer Responsibility Register / Rinki. P €810 + W €925 = €1,735/yr. Battery: +€925.

France: ADEME/SYDEREP; normally Citeo or Leko. P €585 + W €985 = €1,570/yr. Battery: +€790.

Germany: LUCID/ZSVR plus a dual-system contract; WEEE: Stiftung EAR. P €360 + W €1,185 = €1,545/yr. Battery: +€705. Germany illustrates why the service price and actual environmental fee should not be confused: LUCID registration itself is free and one current small-volume packaging example is only about €39–€41/year if handled directly.

Greece: EOAN/EMPA / HERRCO. P €790 + W €985 = €1,775/yr. Battery: +€910.

Hungary: national registration / MOHU. P €1,120 + W €1,185 = €2,305/yr. Battery: +€985.

Ireland: EPA / Repak as applicable. P €585 + W €1,170 = €1,755/yr. Battery: +€1,170.

Italy: CONAI and relevant consortium. P €805 + W €1,305 = €2,110/yr. Battery: nominally +€1,305, although this provider offers a WEEE+battery bundle.

Latvia: State Environmental Service / approved recovery system. P €1,290 + W €1,365 = €2,655/yr. Battery: +€1,375.

Lithuania: GPAIS / approved PRO. P €780 + W €1,365 = €2,145/yr. Battery: +€1,375.

Luxembourg: Valorlux. P €375 + W €1,485 = €1,860/yr. Battery: +€1,500.

Malta: ERA / GreenPak or Green MT. P €780 + W €675 = €1,455/yr. Battery: +€675.

Netherlands: Verpact; electronics commonly through Stichting OPEN/Wecycle. P €385 + W €385 = €770/yr. Battery: +€385.

Poland — Packaging/WEEE registration through BDO and appropriate recovery organisation. P €910 + W €1,110 = €2,020/yr. Battery: +€985.

Portugal: APA/SILiamb / Sociedade Ponto Verde or another scheme. P €1,195 + W €1,390 = €2,585/yr. Battery: +€1,390.

Romania: AFM / approved OIREP. P €880 + W €1,195 = €2,075/yr. Battery: +€1,195.

Slovakia: Ministry/ISOH / ENVI-PAK, NATUR-PACK or equivalent. P €750 + W €1,120 = €1,870/yr. Battery: +€1,125.

Slovenia: ARSO / approved PRO. P €1,485 + W €1,615 = €3,100/yr. Battery: +€1,630.

Spain: MITECO / Ecoembes. P €790 + W €985 = €1,775/yr. Battery: +€985. This provider also quotes €595 one-time for obtaining the Spanish NIF where required, plus official/apostille costs.

Sweden: Naturvårdsverket / NPA. P €810 + W €1,110 = €1,920/yr. Battery: +€505.

Using the published list of concierge prices above, covering all 27 EU countries for a batteryless electronic product would cost approximately:

Packaging service: €20,290/year WEEE service: €29,260/year Combined: €49,550/year

Adding battery compliance using the same provider's à-la-carte figures adds approximately €27,445/year.

What is the opposite of something putting a spring in your step?

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#957

Post by rdm_blackhole »

brookst wrote: post #886
freehorse wrote: post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When big companies have the resources to lobby and pass regulations (EU or country wide level) it is hard to separate these two, in particular when there are long-lasting policies that consistently disadvantage smaller entrepreneurs/small property owners disproportionally. I think it is fair to point criticism to government/eu, but it also fair to point who actually benefits (intentionally or even not) from these.

But it’s the incoherence of the EU support that’s so weird. Apple ships USB-C phones (a year before required): look at the EU standing up to big tech and forcing consumer-friendly products. Crazy policies cripple small business and domestic AI? Oh, it’s not the EU’s fault, it’s that evil big tech. There’s a recurring theme where the EU can do no wrong, despite repeated negative outcomes that only make sense to read a…

> There’s a recurring theme where the EU can do no wrong, despite repeated negative outcomes that only make sense to read as well-meaning but misguided regulatory overzealousness.

Forget it. It's like talking to a wall. Go to /r/Europe and criticize anything regarding the EU and you'll be called a nazi or a far-right extremist.

Something good happens in Europe and you get the constant refrain that without the EU it would have never happened so everyone should just go dance kumbaya around the fire while singing the European anthem but if something goes wrong or is wrong with EU regulations it's because the lobbies got to it/watered it down/ changed it somehow and so on...

That's how you get people who with a straight face will tell you that digital and privacy rights are a 1000 times better in the EU even though the commission has been pushing Chat control V1 and V2 for the last 5 years.

It's complete madness and more akin to cult than anything. Is the EU doing something good sometimes? Yes. Is it the panacea that everyone wants you to believe it is? No.

Heck, even on HN which is usually visited by people who I would like to believe can have a nuanced opinion about certain topics, I have been accused to be some sort of Russian troll or far-right troll just because I dare to criticize the EU regulations that I disagree with.

Yes, I criticize frequently EU tech and EU laws because I live here and I am the one who has to live with it everyday but for some people voicing a disagreement in this day and age is akin to treason.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#958

Post by HWR_14 »

rcxdude wrote: post #953
HWR_14 wrote: post #934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is claiming that his online platform wants to offer that service but they are legally forbidden from doing so. In fact, they suggest allowing services to perform this is a reasonable solution to the whole problem.

It is harder to offer fulfilment as a service, but there are companies that will give you a registered agent in all the relevant countries and help you with the paperwork. It does still look like it's quite expensive though.

The article states that the registered agent needs to fill out paperwork for each country and pay a registration fee. That's the issue, the fixed costs per country making it cost prohibitive to sell just 2 units shipped to France.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#959

Post by Mountain_Skies »

teiferer wrote: post #922
tsss wrote: post #889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is a separate problem.

It should be a separate topic , yes. But calling it a "problem" is already the framing that pits locals against immigrants, distracting from what's really keeping people down. In fact, immigration is a solution to lots of actual problems. (For example demography and lack of economi growth.)

What is the solution to your demand for infinite growth on a planet of finite resources? Sounds like you use immigrants as a shield for your desire to get yours' before the resources run out and the line can't go up anymore.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#960

Post by mullingitover »

rvba wrote: post #561
fallingbananna wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Could EU just ask DHL/Hermes/whatever to charge an additional €1 "for recycling"? Yes, but... Within EU we already pay ~€3 for packages from China. And in Austria we will soon pay additional ~€2 for every delivered package. And 20% VAT. Edit: I am pretty sure at least some part of these already contribute towards recycling. The goal here is likely not just to get more funding for recycling, but rather to use materia…

DHL charges 1 eur for recycling, which it pockets since the envelope or box with thr product went to the consumer... who throws it away to the segregated garbage bin - for which every consumer also pays.

The real farce is that you don't get paid for recycling. Really demonstrates that it's a complete charade.

If there was any value in recycling you'd pay some fee for the packaging, and you'd get it right back when you recycle it.

Outside of aluminum cans and bottle it certainly looks like recycling ends up being 'send it to the landfill, but with some extra steps and fees.'

Post reply on HN