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How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

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Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay $40/mo for 500mbps in my Bushwick apartment - is that considered expensive?

By US standards? No, probably not. But, a quick search indicates you can get similar broadband in Glasgow, Scotland for ~15 GBP/month. And Rome, Italy looks like ~25EUR/month.

I’m in Stockholm, and our condo HOA (BRF) includes 1Gbps per unit in the fee for all units because billing individually would cost more in admin than the service itself. We have FTTP and then cat6 to each unit.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#242
The study methods are closer to advocacy than science or policy.

Sure, take any slice of a vast number, and you get a big number.

It's not a "wealth transfer" when everyone gets what they bargained for and can opt in or out.

Most importantly, the transaction value of using credit cards or rewards systems - what the user actually gets - is not enumerated.

Beyond what others have noted (mainly deferred payment), credit cards offer legal transaction protections: my legal liability for fraud is limited (unlike debit or Zelle transfers), and I can challenge any transaction even later, which gives the vendor an incentive to ensure I'm happy even after they have my money. While reputation provides some incentive for repeat customers, the ability to retract a transaction governs even non-repeats. I would submit this alone has improves quality of service for everyone anywhere credit cards are accepted.

Rewards vary by type. Cash-back rewards reflect the fact that interchange fees were set to recapture initial investments, but servicing costs have plummeting (thanks to computing); governance-wise, it's almost impossible for a "representative" political system to extract a large cost from a small number of powerful agents with vested interests to provide a tiny amount of benefit to a very large numbers of other people. But that's a much more extensive governance issue.

So where does the benefit go? To competition between credit providers, initially as cash-back, and then to tying rebates to future purchases within controlled channels. For airline point systems that give free flights or upgrades, it improves retention, but other forms of rewards would seem to verge on tying, where power in one market is extended into another.

Politically-mediated wealth transfers are a political issue. Economically-mediated wealth transfers should raise market-regulation policy issues, in particular whether the law is inducing or protecting them, and then whether they are good or bad. Tallying that requires not just seeing the money flow, but seeing all the value received or cost exported.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't get a cash discount - cash costs the merchant MORE than credit card fees. You have to count all the costs of cash that credit cards don't have: counting, and recounting the cash and change. Then the manager counts and recounts everything in the back room at the end of the shift. Then the manager counts everything twice again to write up the deposit forms. Plus you need a cash register with the extra cas…

> You shouldn't get a cash discount Maybe, but "should" has nothing to do with it. Either I get one or I use my credit card. > cash costs the merchant MORE than credit card fees That's not my problem.

None of this is your problem: you are not a merchant. What is wrong is the analysis of various people who think cash is cheaper and thus get mad at not getting a cash discount. It is also wrong that a number of merchants are bad at accounting: they think that cash is cheaper by enough to be worth a discount - but this is not your problem either.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presupposes the ability to get a credit card and the confidence of sufficient funds when that auto payment hits.

If the alternative was paying cash, cash has an even more demanding level of confidence of sufficient funds required and it applies earlier with no flexibility.

[flagged]

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that graph tell you? Because I think patio11 wanted to send one message and people accidentally misunderstand the graph. That's the interchange income corresponding to wealthy people. Interchange is paid by the card-accepting business, not by the buyer. The buyer pays interest and other fees and that graph looks very different. From that original study the full picture table says in % of ADB that the "poore…

Businesses raise prices to account for interchange fees. So they are essentially is paid by the consumer. If we outlawed rewards credit cards (by capping interchange fees), everything would likely be slightly cheaper.

> Businesses raise prices to account for interchange fees

Agreed, which makes the picture even worse for those low income people. Even poor people are guaranteed to occasionally pay the "rich person tax" included in the prices of some of the products and services. At least until some AI pricing starts changing the price real-time based on the buyer's estimated wealth (sort of already real).

> So they are essentially is paid by the consumer.

Not from a bank's perspective. Only in the sense that prices are higher between the seller and buyer.

> If we outlawed rewards credit cards (by capping interchange fees), everything would likely be slightly cheaper.

I don't agree on the second point as a blanket statement. When Epic game store lowered its fee not a single game got cheaper for the buyers.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#246
I have several credit cards and pay them off at the end of the month. I get mostly free hotel stays when I take my family on vacation and have had many free airline tickets.

I also used a credit card to bootstrap my business 15 years ago. At it's height, I was brining in $1 million/year. The bank would have never given me a loan for the amount I was able to use on a credit card. I ended up shutting the business down a few years ago, with no debt.

Most people can't handle spending and rack up tons of debt. Credit cards can also be used to make money, instead of buying stupid things you can't afford.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#247

Credit card fees is one of the main reasons why Brazil's Pix and India's UPI are destroying their market share in those countries. For merchants, it just doesn't make sense to pay high fees to cater to a dwindling minority of consumers.

Credit card usage has been increasing in India.

Source: https://bfsi.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articles/credit-ca...

Besides, NPCI has introduced merchant transaction fee for UPI now causing decline in UPI transactions.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of time: the time you waste by not spending money you don't have. You have to wait longer until you make more money in order to spend more without interest.

Don't spend money you don't have. Especially don't do it with 20% interest short-term loans. It's not that hard. If you're not financially responsible enough to handle a credit card, do not get one. I didn't have one until my late 20s.

I'm not arguing for myself, I agree you shouldn't spend money you don't have.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are an economist, aren't you? I suspect that because I didn't understand what you wrote. You used a lot of passive voice and complex jargon. That is economists favorite writing style: they write to confuse, not to explain.

> You are an economist, aren't you? No. I do embedded software engineering for a living. I use (in my view) HN appropriate levels of jargon (because lots of people here are involved with getting people to pay for some newfangled cloud thing or other, so I use their terminology). In simple words: People pay more for the same (and spend more recklessly) when you let them pay by credit card, and this causes much more ec…

Thanks, it is better now.

Re: How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whole Europe does this. I never understood why whole nation wants to live in debt just to have one extra month of cash flow (which they’ll probably squander soon).

Because it gives me 2.5% cash back, which is basically free money.

That comes out of the merchant's pocket, who has priced it into the sale price you are paying.

It is not, thus, free money, at all.

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