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Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#131

Post by deepvibrations »

srean wrote: post #84
suriyaG wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

eating any meat is morally questionable. (I say this as a person who does eat a lot of meat). octopus passing a intelligence test does not keep it above the fold, neither does cattle go below the fold because they don't clear the bar (surprise, cattle are equally emotional, smart, curious etc.). sounds wrong when I type it out but that is just the truth. milk is actually more ethically wrong when you think about it (…

Yes I don't get it why milk is considered more ethically sound than eggs in my country. Milk is stolen baby food extracted industrially under not so nice conditions. Precision-Fermented (animal-Free) milk does exist but it is not easily available. Unfertilized eggs are products that come out anyway and cannot become a chick till it is successfully fertilized outside of the hen. Granted that these two are extracted in…

Just to note, eggs are not as ethical as you may assume... We have bred chickens so that they lay an unhealthy amount of eggs, which is likely a pretty stressful life experience. The original breed of bird (Red junglefowl) laid roughly a dozen eggs a year, where as modern layer hens will lay 300+. So it's not really "comes out anyway".

They often get medical conditions like Keel bone fractures and reproductive tract disease and they're also culled at around 18 months when output drops (tiny fraction of their lifespan). Oh and the male chicks don't lay, so roughly one per hen gets killed on day one.

I still think overall milk is probably worse, but plant-based is biggest win to reduce suffering overall!

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#132

Post by soco »

Miraltar wrote: post #115
neuroticnews25 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the isolation necessary or just an implementation detail? When my family had a goat we didn't do anything like that, the kids grew freely sucking the mother and then she was giving milk for years after that.

From my understanding this is doable in a context like yours but if you want to run a business out of it you have to optimize it which requires this separation.

The business of "optimizing" is breaking a lot of things in the world, when you think about it.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#133

Post by shafyy »

srean wrote: post #129
shafyy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Waiting for good lab grown meat to become cheap. This is a cop out. There are plenty of excellent plant-based meat alternatives that I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference in a blind test.

Could you point a few out ? I would be eager to try them out if they are available here in India.

I'm only familar with the brands in Germany unfortunately. You might have Beyond Burger available in India — not my favorite vegan burger patty, but I think it's good enough.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#134

Post by soco »

shafyy wrote: post #121
srean wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I don't get it why milk is considered more ethically sound than eggs in my country. Milk is stolen baby food extracted industrially under not so nice conditions. Precision-Fermented (animal-Free) milk does exist but it is not easily available. Unfertilized eggs are products that come out anyway and cannot become a chick till it is successfully fertilized outside of the hen. Granted that these two are extracted in…

> Waiting for good lab grown meat to become cheap. This is a cop out. There are plenty of excellent plant-based meat alternatives that I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference in a blind test.

For sure I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but I don't know anything screaming more "processed food" than the meat alternatives. The component list is longer than this thread, sorry I wouldn't touch that with a hundred feet pole (hyperbole mine).

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#135

Post by shafyy »

soco wrote: post #134
shafyy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Waiting for good lab grown meat to become cheap. This is a cop out. There are plenty of excellent plant-based meat alternatives that I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference in a blind test.

For sure I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but I don't know anything screaming more "processed food" than the meat alternatives. The component list is longer than this thread, sorry I wouldn't touch that with a hundred feet pole (hyperbole mine).

This just proves you don't have a lot of knowledge about food.

First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts. Just because a food is processed doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or are you under the impresssion your sausage and burger patty are health foods?

Second, just like with non-vegan foods, there is a variety of plant-based meat alternatives: Some companies include much healthier ingredients than others.

Finally, even if it weren't for my two first points, the main goal of replacing animal meat with plant-based meat is not health, but ethics and environmental concerns (but again, it's not unhealthier).

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#137

Post by Razengan »

culi wrote: post #21
Razengan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this headcanon that an ancient ape civilization was at war with cephalopods and they created a weapon of mass destruction that artificially gimped octopus lifespans :'(

There is only one species of octopus that lives socially (LPSO are rare and incredibly intelligent but their lifespans are like 3 years) Maybe your headcannon should be that apes did a "tower of babel" type thing to make all the octopus individualistic and unable to organize into a civilization

Actually, just like how among apes only one [sub]species has been known to develop sapience and civilization, could there be one particular species among octopuses that is particularly well suited for [future] sapience?

Should we wipe them out now, just to be safe?

(no, don't. all cephalopods should be protected)

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#138

Post by messe »

shafyy wrote: post #133
srean wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you point a few out ? I would be eager to try them out if they are available here in India.

I'm only familar with the brands in Germany unfortunately. You might have Beyond Burger available in India — not my favorite vegan burger patty, but I think it's good enough.

The beyond burger is decent, but there's no way it's fooling someone in a blind taste test.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#139

Post by messe »

shafyy wrote: post #135
soco wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but I don't know anything screaming more "processed food" than the meat alternatives. The component list is longer than this thread, sorry I wouldn't touch that with a hundred feet pole (hyperbole mine).

This just proves you don't have a lot of knowledge about food. First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts. Just because a food is processed doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or are you under the impresssion your sausage and burger patty are health foods? Second, just like with non-vegan foods, there is a variety of plant-based meat alternati…

> First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts

Define healthier, and link the studies.

I eat vegetarian more often than not these days (although I don't usually use plant-based meat), and I'm not disagreeing with you. But cite your sources rather than making vague health claims.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#140

Post by simianparrot »

srean wrote: post #106
colinb wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your italicised text is /exactly/ wrong. Hen eggs are fertilised inside the hen’s oviduct. I mean, eggs are somewhat porous after laying, but they’re not that porous. (I don’t know about you. I’m just a programmer holding strong opinions about avian physiology. Maybe there’s an actual biologist on the plane who can correct me)

Oh! Thanks for correcting me. Now I learned that the egg is fertilized (if at all) before the shell is formed. The hen would lay the egg anyway fertilization or no fertilization.

Simplified egg laying are the chicken analogue to human female menstruation. It is technically quite different (chickens don’t have a uterus, for one), but it is still analogous.
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