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How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

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Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#651

Post by malloryerik »

mstaoru wrote: post #190

I don't know if this EU regulation will work or not (most likely not), but I can share how it is done in China (where package volume is orders of magnitude higher). China identifies "choke points" most packages pass: large platforms and logistics companies. Yes, Chinese e-commerce is more centralized on Alibaba/JD/PDD etc, but there are actually much more logistics companies in China than in EU. They also do not intr…

Can you imagine an (Android) app store model? You know when you buy packaging that it's verified. Complies with regulations. Companies submit packaging for review that's cheap, fast, tax-supported, and EU-wide. Doesn't have to be like the FDA. So that reusables could become a thing, I'd be fine honestly with extra charges for most branded packaging. This butts up against freedom of expression I suppose but come on the single-use plastics problem is real. But as described what sounds exactly backwards is the EU model. Radiohead sang, "If I were king you'd be backed up against the wall" but I'd sing, "Send your goods in any verified packaging!"

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#652

Post by LelouBil »

LelouBil wrote: post #619
aero_code wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see a diagram on page 13, but I read a few pages around there. I don't see anything about it not applying to micro-enterprises. I see one diagram (PDF page 14/page num 11) that says a farmer selling "under own name or trademark to end user in another Member State" (without saying there's an exception for a micro-enterprise) means that the "Farmer is producer," which sounds like the opposite of what you said.

There is a diagram on page 12 that says companies that use unbranded packages OR that use branded packages but are micro entreprise are not considered as "producer" of the package

After re-reading, it only specifies the packaging manufacturer is the producer when they are in the same member state as the seller.

If the seller sells to other member states I don't know

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#653

Post by [deleted] »

mpweiher wrote: post #568
amarcheschi wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't followed the legislative process, where can I find that the eu wanted a single registry but the country pushed for national ones? Because i have never read it. I'm not saying it's not true, it's just that it's so hard to follow these things when one is supposed to have a life as well

There has been reporting on this in many places. Here is one: https://packaging-journal.de/en/eu-commission-wants-to-scrap... "According to the Händlerbund, the European Commission's proposal to abolish the requirement has been on the table since December 2025. However, discussions in the Council of the EU were suspended a few weeks ago after a majority of member states spoke out against it." "A restricted version is…

[deleted]

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#654

Post by desterothx »

wolvoleo wrote: post #640
rwyinuse wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, if you want to fix electronics more often than not China is the only place you can buy spare parts. I don't think buying spare parts to devices counts as "stupid shit".

Yup and those parts often cost literal cents making the €3,60 per item a ridiculously high fee. All while we're protecting the environment by repairing things.

the fee goes per product category, not per item...

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#655

Post by A_D_E_P_T »

Uh, guys, the EU left a huge loophole.

The law applies to all companies that "makes transport packaging available for the first time on the territory of another Member State, directly to end users." (I've checked and there's definitely no exemption for micro entities.)

The loophole is in the words "for the first time" and "another Member State."

So. You are in Italy. You want to ship a parcel to Germany. If you buy generic packaging off-the-shelf from a German supplier, and then you ship the parcel in that packaging, the regulation does not apply to you, as that specific packaging material was already "made available" in the territory of the destination Member State before you used it. Therefore you cannot be the party making that packaging unit available there "for the first time."

It was already available in that member state via a different company. You bought it. You used it.

You'd need to buy boxes and bubble-wrap from 27 member states and keep them inventoried, but that's pennies compared to actual regulatory compliance -- I mean, the paperwork and fees.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#656

Post by wolvoleo »

desterothx wrote: post #654
wolvoleo wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup and those parts often cost literal cents making the €3,60 per item a ridiculously high fee. All while we're protecting the environment by repairing things.

the fee goes per product category, not per item...

I know but in practice those categories are very narrow. If I order two different things I'll still pay the fee twice in practice.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#657

Post by cucumber3732842 »

ionwake wrote: post #69

as the whole world crushes small entities one has to wonder whether the EU would be the saviour or not. Apparently not. With its rules, they merely help crush small business as per usual. I heard in the 50s an american could just startup a business installing septic tanks. But now the same person would need a myriad of regulations to be met, heavy equipment use mandated, all of which raise overhead to a level where i…

>I heard in the 50s an american could just startup a business installing septic tanks. But now the same person would need a myriad of regulations to be met, heavy equipment use mandated, all of which raise overhead to a level where its impossible to get off the ground.

Worse. You can't even install septics in wide swaths of the country. Well, the evil people in the internet comments will say you can, but they're omitting the nonstarter costs, discretionary permits, etc, etc, that make it simply not worth it vs paying for city sewer or whatever mound system the compliance people want to make you buy.

So that sliver or industry that has 100x the compliance burden it used to has 1/100th the activity to amortize it over. Further shrinking it.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#658

Post by codethief »

ericmay wrote: post #328
akie wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Imagine trying to create a single set of laws to apply to all of the countries in North and South America at the same time. I actually think it would be quite a bit easier than it is to create the EU. There's a lot more broad cultural homogeneity between the countries in the Americas than there is within Europe. Even on the topic of language you've got the vast majority of all peoples speaking some combination of S…

> There's a lot more broad cultural homogeneity between the countries in the Americas than there is within Europe.

That must be the most preposterous thing I've read in while, no offense! :-)

My personal experience has been the exact opposite: That cultural differences (and political differences no less!) in the Americas and also prejudices towards each other are huge, both between countries and often even between individual regions. (And that's even if you exclude the US for a second.) Also, countries in the Americas have had rather different histories (both pre and post Columbus) with only partial overlap. Meanwhile, European countries' history is practically impossible to disentangle, probably thanks in parts to how small the continent is in comparison to the Americas. On top of that, European culture has also had entire millenia to amalgamate and harmonize to the point where, yes, we may still speak different languages but it's very common for people to be able to trace back their ancestors' history across half the continent. It provides us all with the same cultural backdrop and the same roots as to where we come from, whereas in the case of the Americas I would ask: What is the common backdrop here? What are those common roots on a continent that combines both the incredibly rich history of hundreds of different indigenous peoples (all with their individual languages and customs) and the history of Europe, Africa and (in parts) Asia together? The partially shared experience of Spanish colonialism, and English, Spanish and Portuguese as shared languages only get you so far.

Finally, if your claim is that Europe is culturally much more heterogeneous (which again I don't think it is), I'd argue we must have exported a lot of that to the Americas, too. :-)

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#659

Post by throw-the-towel »

jvwww wrote: post #639
throw-the-towel wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don't Switzerland or the UK have similarly comfortable lifestyles with less absurd taxation?

UK taxation is absolutely absurd. Kills the ambitious. Just look at what happens between 100-125k, both from the perspective of tax and loss in benefits for parents.

Well, as sad as it is, that's still better than what they have across the Channel. (You'd pay 44.4% tax on the equivalent of 125k GBP.) But thank you for correcting me, I wasn't aware of that!

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#660

Post by alexanderchr »

labcomputer wrote: post #340
yardie wrote: post #29

One of the biggest problems that I have in the EU is that it's almost federated. EU will pass laws, countries will adopt those laws, but you end up with 20-24 different versions of those laws. With some countries being strict or lenient about the law that everyone agreed to. And a lot it is written from the perspective that large corporations are the only ones who do business throughout the EU. It's completely missed…

> And a lot it is written from the perspective that large corporations are the only ones who do business throughout the EU. It's completely missed that small entrepreneurs may also want to take part. I'm not convinced that's an accident. I think politicians in Europe are just better than those in the US at hiding who they really work for. There are numerous examples of regulations in many European countries that crea…

> Likewise, in the US you cannot (legally) shelter your income by declaring it to be foreign income, as you can in most European countries.

Not sure what you mean, most European countries tax residents on worldwide income. You certainly can’t just declare income as foreign and be done with it. Some countries (notably UK) had loopholes for non-domiciled residents but they are being closed now.

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