Live data from Hacker News

One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

cnn.com

71–80 of 190 posts

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#71

"The negationist proposition, in the age in which it is being advanced, cannot therefore be truly denied, since everything, all of us, including those who reject it, have passed over, whether we like it or not, into an age where there is no longer any objective recourse. The proposition, therefore, can be rejected only by a kind of mirror denial. And that is where its victory lies - though in fact it is not its victo…

When was there an age where there was objective recourse? I guess when we could burn people for heresy?

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#72
> Callum, a 24-year-old Beijing resident, told CNN that questioning the Tang’s existence could be a way to rebel against established wisdom and a way for China’s young – faced with a slowing economy and greater competition for jobs and resources – to criticize authorities.

> “It is a way for people to attack the established authorities. It is almost like saying ‘those so-called experts are nothing special. They have all been misleading people. I am the one who understands the truth, and I have exposed them all.’”

China got it's own form of Qanon.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#73
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. You're probably familiar with the "Hanfu" revival -- a sort of resurgence in people adopting traditional clothing and makeup styles from the Han and Tang dynasties. It's entirely on account of the fact that those two dynasties were remarkably stable, prosperous, and peaceful, so they lend themselves to historical romanticism -- like the Chinese equivalent of the Renaissance Faire. Good vibes. Even popular in Ja…

> Even popular in Japan, with e.g. The Apothecary Diaries and similar fare. Notably the Tang Dynasty in China was concurrent with the Taika Reforms, Nara period & beginning of the Heian period in Japan.

Even portrayed in Japanese-related games: https://shogun2-encyclopedia.com/techs/gempei_civil_core_tan...

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#74
post #11

Its a Chinese equivalent of the phantom time theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_conspiracy_theory Its just as silly as phantom time and covers almost exactly the same period. The motive is possibly racist which makes it more sinister.

I just read the theory and I’m now a believer.

It’s only 1729! Let’s goo, I mean:

Come on ye lads!

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#75

A much better article about the phenomenon: https://open.substack.com/pub/ramble/p/the-tang-dynasty-was-...

I encourage anyone browsing through this to read that link. It gives insight on what many Westerners have no visibility into - how many Chinese view the Qing dynasty, which was romanticized by Spielberg's Last Emperor. More importantly, it's a clue on why China is fervently cracking down on this.

If you search on Google, there's a slew of Chinese restaurants in the US named "Ming Dynasty." If you were in the SF Peninsula in the 80's and 90's, the one on Embarcadero and 101 drew well known chefs from Hong Kong during its heyday. Conversely, Google knows of two "Ching" or "Qin Dynasty" restaurants in the US. Many Han Chinese have always looked down on the Ching Dynasty as illegitimate colonialists.

This particular issue is a sore point with the CCP with respect to Hong Kong. During the crackdowns in 2019, mainland propaganda justified the crackdown as de-colonization. They called the British takeover an invasion to force subjugation through mass drugging (opium).

In response to this, many protestors appealed to Han-centrism. They argued that the Ching were already an illegitimate colonizing force, and blame them for everything that led up to Western colonization. This includes everything from weakened military might to failed trade/war negotiations, to anti-opium crackdowns. If the British broke in, it's because the Manchus left the door open. And by legitimizing the Ching Dynasty, you have an indirect trail of responsibility to the CCP themselves.

This Hong Kong link is why this Tang issue is not a joke to the CCP.

Final note because I have to pre-emptively address this on social media: If you feel like you need to jump in with a generic anti-colonial comment, don't. Hongkongers' views of being British subjects, especially from 1970's on, should absolutely not be seen through Western, especially modern progressive PoV. TL;DR - the majority, often vast majority, of Hongkongers wished to remain under British rule.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#76
post #33
post #11

Its a Chinese equivalent of the phantom time theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_conspiracy_theory Its just as silly as phantom time and covers almost exactly the same period. The motive is possibly racist which makes it more sinister.

Back in the early 2000's, well before most social media sites existed, I had a coworker who shared with me a number of questionable theories, one of which was basically this. He also believed very passionately that plate tectonics was wrong. Unfortunately social media didn't invent brain worms.

Was he reading Neal Adams?

I have to admit - Expanding Earth is hard to debunk!

I think because like Flat Earth many of the observations and elements therein are accurate - they just get the overall picture wrong.

Like stealing the ball with 4 sec left running down the court no defense in sight for the winning layup and missing - comically bouncing off the backboard.

Alas, I believe most crackpots mean well, they just aren’t very good at the sport

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#77
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even popular in Japan, with e.g. The Apothecary Diaries and similar fare. Notably the Tang Dynasty in China was concurrent with the Taika Reforms, Nara period & beginning of the Heian period in Japan.

And thus for a very long time, and even today to some extent, the Japanese (or their cultural theorists at any rate!) have viewed themselves as the inheritors of "true" Ancient Chinese culture -- unsullied by Mongol/Manchu/Communist influence. There's some truth to this. The Japanese preserved certain Tang Dynasty customs which were lost to China, and they have some of the best collections of Tang-era artifacts. This…

They resent our freedoms!

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#78

> Callum, a 24-year-old Beijing resident, told CNN that questioning the Tang’s existence could be a way to rebel against established wisdom and a way for China’s young – faced with a slowing economy and greater competition for jobs and resources – to criticize authorities. > “It is a way for people to attack the established authorities. It is almost like saying ‘those so-called experts are nothing special. They have…

there's something comforting seeing that someone else on the other side of the planet from me has the same troubles.

http://V2ex.com

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#80

> Callum, a 24-year-old Beijing resident, told CNN that questioning the Tang’s existence could be a way to rebel against established wisdom and a way for China’s young – faced with a slowing economy and greater competition for jobs and resources – to criticize authorities. > “It is a way for people to attack the established authorities. It is almost like saying ‘those so-called experts are nothing special. They have…

Depends on how much you think people actually believe Qanon. This is "We're going to raise a middle finger to the authorities in a form that's hard for them to come down on us, but it's very deliberately against the authorities." Qanon may have been that, too, but my impression is that at least some people really believed it.
Post reply on HN