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One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

cnn.com

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Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#61

Post by rsynnott »

DesaiAshu wrote: post #18

"Claiming that the 300-year dynasty was actually a myth is akin to saying the American Civil War never happened" Aren't republicans in Texas trying to rewrite history books to ignore lynchings and burnings of Black Wall Street and claim that slaves were treated pretty well? Seems like every country has factions who do this - right?

There are cranks who claim that, essentially, the _middle ages_ did not happen. Claiming that things which obviously happened didn’t happen is one of the more common forms of crankery; motives vary (I think the Middle Ages deniers are generally a bit more innocent than the Texas Republicans, say)

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#62

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

guyzero wrote: post #33
graemep wrote: post #11

Its a Chinese equivalent of the phantom time theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_conspiracy_theory Its just as silly as phantom time and covers almost exactly the same period. The motive is possibly racist which makes it more sinister.

Back in the early 2000's, well before most social media sites existed, I had a coworker who shared with me a number of questionable theories, one of which was basically this. He also believed very passionately that plate tectonics was wrong. Unfortunately social media didn't invent brain worms.

Depending on how much older he was than you at the time, he might genuinely have been taught in high school that this was wrong. Only in the early 1970s did that even start to gain traction. If he was taught by one of the hold-outs that esteemed a pre-tectonics geologist, it'd be pretty natural to think like that I imagine.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#63

Post by guyzero »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #62
guyzero wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the early 2000's, well before most social media sites existed, I had a coworker who shared with me a number of questionable theories, one of which was basically this. He also believed very passionately that plate tectonics was wrong. Unfortunately social media didn't invent brain worms.

Depending on how much older he was than you at the time, he might genuinely have been taught in high school that this was wrong. Only in the early 1970s did that even start to gain traction. If he was taught by one of the hold-outs that esteemed a pre-tectonics geologist, it'd be pretty natural to think like that I imagine.

oh he understood what plate tectonics was proposing very well, he just completely rejected it in favour of many distributed prehistoric oceans and a lot (a LOT) of erosion. It was weirdly congruent to phantom time theory.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#64

Post by EdwardDiego »

What's interesting is that if you read Wikipedia, there are multiple (without sources, mind) sentences going "btw Li Yuan was totally Han via an ancestor 17 generations previously".

So clearly this is rather important to some people.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#65

Post by SllX »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #47
senderista wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Shang dynasty is also kind of a propaganda nightmare, with all the archeological evidence for mass human sacrifice.

Yeah. You're probably familiar with the "Hanfu" revival -- a sort of resurgence in people adopting traditional clothing and makeup styles from the Han and Tang dynasties. It's entirely on account of the fact that those two dynasties were remarkably stable, prosperous, and peaceful, so they lend themselves to historical romanticism -- like the Chinese equivalent of the Renaissance Faire. Good vibes. Even popular in Ja…

> Even popular in Japan, with e.g. The Apothecary Diaries and similar fare.

Notably the Tang Dynasty in China was concurrent with the Taika Reforms, Nara period & beginning of the Heian period in Japan.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#67

Post by EdwardDiego »

senderista wrote: post #35
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #29

There are primary sources. There are archeological sites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qianling_Mausoleum There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sourc…

The Shang dynasty is also kind of a propaganda nightmare, with all the archeological evidence for mass human sacrifice.

Your comment sent me to Wikipedia and this caught my eye [0], a Late Shang inscribed rhinoceros rib, which then deepened the wikihole [1], it's funny how even though I know of the Indian rhino and Sumatran rhino, it never occurred to me that they were even more widespread...

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Shang#/media/File:Shang_d...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceroses_in_ancient_China

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#68

Post by EdwardDiego »

jmclnx wrote: post #45
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #29

There are primary sources. There are archeological sites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qianling_Mausoleum There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sourc…

Everywhere in the Wikipedia articles is this phrase "had Han ethnic origins". Looks like China Editors are trying to change history. At least that is based upon what the CNN article is saying.

I spotted the same thing, and there's never a source given. Allegedly his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather (or 15th great-grandfather for short) was totally Han, the son of the scourge of the Xiongnu - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Guang

A timely reminder that, damn, China is olllldddd.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#69

Post by A_D_E_P_T »

SllX wrote: post #65
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. You're probably familiar with the "Hanfu" revival -- a sort of resurgence in people adopting traditional clothing and makeup styles from the Han and Tang dynasties. It's entirely on account of the fact that those two dynasties were remarkably stable, prosperous, and peaceful, so they lend themselves to historical romanticism -- like the Chinese equivalent of the Renaissance Faire. Good vibes. Even popular in Ja…

> Even popular in Japan, with e.g. The Apothecary Diaries and similar fare. Notably the Tang Dynasty in China was concurrent with the Taika Reforms, Nara period & beginning of the Heian period in Japan.

And thus for a very long time, and even today to some extent, the Japanese (or their cultural theorists at any rate!) have viewed themselves as the inheritors of "true" Ancient Chinese culture -- unsullied by Mongol/Manchu/Communist influence.

There's some truth to this. The Japanese preserved certain Tang Dynasty customs which were lost to China, and they have some of the best collections of Tang-era artifacts.

This line of thought was, however, used in very unfortunate WWII-era propaganda, like "we have to invade China to rescue its civilization, only we can do this!"

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#70

Post by YackerLose »

"The negationist proposition, in the age in which it is being advanced, cannot therefore be truly denied, since everything, all of us, including those who reject it, have passed over, whether we like it or not, into an age where there is no longer any objective recourse. The proposition, therefore, can be rejected only by a kind of mirror denial. And that is where its victory lies - though in fact it is not its victory, but the victory of real time over the present, over the past, over any form whatsoever of logical articulation of reality." - Jean Baudrillard
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